Theatre’s Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Theatre’s Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Timon3
Stand-by Joined: 4/29/20
#1Theatre’s Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/9/24 at 11:34am
I’m thinking on the lines - like The Phantom of the Opera that was offered the Al Hirschfeld (Jujamcyn) and Minskoff (Nederlander) before settling on the Majestic (Shubert.)
#2Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/9/24 at 1:09pm
Is it possible to change the subject from "theatre's" to "theatres?" The apostrophe made it seem like you were saying "Theatre IS Offered - But Kindly Declined" as in maybe you'd gotten someone tickets as a gift and they declined them or that school theatre participation is dropping despite it frequently being available.
Super curious to know if there are other instances of shows having the power to reject theatres. The only instance I can think of would be Scott Rudin declining an offer to move To Kill a Mockingbird to put Music Man in the Shubert because he only wanted the Winter Garden.
OhHiii
Broadway Star Joined: 4/30/16
#3Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/9/24 at 1:38pm
This is something that happens much more frequently than you may think. That is, only shows that the theater owners absolutely want in their houses really have the sway in turning down a house. It's widely noted on this board that Boop was offered the Broadway which all signs point to them turning that down. Sunset Boulevard coming this Fall reportedly turned down the Barrymore to come in this season in favor of the larger St. James.
AEA AGMA SM
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/13/09
#4Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/9/24 at 2:23pm
I don’t remember the rumors, if any, at the time, but I’d imagine Matilda had their pick of any prime location, at least initially. The RSC had a lot of high profile producers ready to jump on board for the Broadway transfer, and it was highly unusual that they ultimately ended up with only one other credited producer, the Dodgers. Compare that to the 22 producers and 1 associate producer listed for Kinky Boots (and that number is even higher if you count each individual name in some of the producing conglomerates/companies that got credit).
Phantom4ever
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/17/07
#5Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/9/24 at 4:52pm
Mackintosh also considered the Hellinger for Phantom, but it was really between the Martin Beck (Hirschfeld) and the Majestic. Mackintosh officially said no to the Majestic after Bjornson and Prince said there would be too many seats in the orchestra that couldn't see the chandelier and the Phantom when he is on the catwalk. But Mackintosh took the Majestic anyway after the Shuberts agreed to not only make structural changes to the theater, but pay for them too, to the tune of $500,000 (almost 1.3 million in 2024 dollars). Incidentally, those structural changes did nothing to address the faulty sightlines at the Majestic; they just made it possible for the show to look largely the same as in London. For example, the candlabras could rise from the stage as opposed to roll in from the side, which is something that would have had to happen if the structural changes were not done.
OhHiii
Broadway Star Joined: 4/30/16
#6Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/9/24 at 4:55pm
AEA AGMA SM said: "I don’t remember the rumors, if any, at the time, but I’d imagineMatildahad their pick of any prime location, at least initially. The RSC had a lot of high profile producers ready to jump on board for the Broadway transfer, and it was highly unusual that they ultimately ended up with only one other credited producer, the Dodgers. Compare that to the 22 producers and 1 associate producer listed forKinky Boots(and that number is even higher if you count each individual name in some of the producing conglomerates/companies that got credit)."
And this right here, combined with Warchus getting up on stage at an industry event saying that Americans couldn't make musicals as good as Brits, and you have yourself the story of how Matilda lost the Tony. And really lost it before it played a single performance on Broadway due to how they selected their producer. That said, there's no kinder man on Broadway than Michael David.
#7Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/10/24 at 12:47pm
Did Jujamcyn/Nederlander/Shubert offer any of their theaters to producers of Harry Potter when HP was looking for a theater back in 2016/2017?
OhHiJohnny
Swing Joined: 10/20/17
#8Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/10/24 at 3:08pm
Just rattling off a few from memory:
The revival of Sweet Charity was rumored to transfer to the Lyric (then Hilton) with Britney Spears taking over from Applegate.
Young Frankenstein was supposed to take the St James after Producers closed instead of the Hilton (now Lyric).
Dear Evan Hansen was supposed to open in the Belasco and Next to Normal the Longacre, Hedwig was supposed to be at the Golden, and The Prom the Cort (now Jones).
The current Sweeney revival was at one point rumored to take the St James (before Woods had their first extension).
I may be incredibly incorrect, but back in 2007 I remember hearing some grand plan that would’ve kept Beauty and the Beast open when The Little Mermaid came in but it would’ve involved Mary Poppins not taking the New Amsterdam? Essentially, Lion King would’ve stayed in its original home, Tarzan would’ve opened at the Minskoff, Poppins would’ve taken the Palace, and the 3rd National Tour set of Beauty would’ve taken the Rodgers. Mackintosh insisting on the New Amsterdam for Poppins allegedly caused the shuffle to take place, but I’ll admit my mind is fuzzy on the finer details. It’s insane to think Disney would’ve had five musicals simultaneously on Broadway at one point.
Timon3
Stand-by Joined: 4/29/20
#9Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/10/24 at 3:22pm
Whistle Down the Wind was all but offered the Shubert Theatre, but the Shubert organisation couldn’t evict Big. Anyway a disastrous try out in Washington quashed any hopes.
#10Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/10/24 at 3:32pm
^Not exactly. Tickets were already on sale for the production at the then Martin Beck Theatre, but the show was postponed twice then cancelled.
Matilda was rumored for the Winter Garden but needed a center aisle, and was going to cause a rumored chain reaction of Mamma Mia to the Ambassador and Chicago to the Booth (rumored, not confirmed).
As for Harry Potter, The Hirschfeld and revamped Minskoff were rumored (again, not saying this is fact).
#11Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/10/24 at 4:45pm
Timon3 said: "I’m thinking on the lines - like The Phantom of the Opera that was offered the Al Hirschfeld (Jujamcyn) and Minskoff (Nederlander) before settling on the Majestic (Shubert.)"
Any info on why Phantom didn't take the Hirschfeld or Minskoff?
It's interesting hearing Maria Bjornson had a problem with people not seeing the chandelier or catwalk since so many seats in London can't see that either. Maybe she felt it was a chance to correct the issue? Either way I would say the sightlines at the Majestic were still a vast improvement over Her (now His) Majesty's.
Jarethan
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/10/11
#12Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/10/24 at 4:57pm
BroadwayNYC2 said: "^Not exactly. Tickets were already on sale for the production at the thenMartin Beck Theatre, but the show was postponed twice then cancelled.
Matilda was rumored for the Winter Garden but needed a center aisle, and was going to cause a rumored chain reaction of Mamma Mia to the Ambassador and Chicago to the Booth (rumored, not confirmed).
As for Harry Potter, TheHirschfeld and revamped Minskoff were rumored (again, not saying this is fact)."
I do not know for sure what you mean by a center aisle. To me, the Palace had a true center aisle and I assume that one was manufactured for The Minskoff for the Lion King. Neither the Winter Garden nor the Shubert really have a center aisle. Both are pretty standard: three sections, divided by two aisles, not one.
Jarethan
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/10/11
#13Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/10/24 at 5:03pm
FANtomFollies said: "Timon3 said: "I’m thinking on the lines - like The Phantom of the Opera that was offered the Al Hirschfeld (Jujamcyn) and Minskoff (Nederlander) before settling on the Majestic (Shubert.)"
Any info on why Phantom didn't take the Hirschfeld or Minskoff?
It's interesting hearing Maria Bjornson had a problem with people not seeing the chandelier or catwalk since so many seats in London can't see that either. Maybe she felt it was a chance to correct the issue?
Either way I would say the then Martin Beck was not a serious contender because it had 400 - 500 less seats than the Majestic, which meant lower grosses. They were expecting a monster hit from the outset, so I doubt they would have been gone with such a smaller theatre.. Re the Minskoff, unless they were going to be getting the deal of the century, why take the Minskoff when the Majestic seemed like such a perfect place for a show like Phamtom. Admit that I cannot remember if there was a big hit in the Majectic at the time that needed to be moved, although I doubt it.
#14Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/10/24 at 5:05pm
OhHiii said: "AEA AGMA SM said: "I don’t remember the rumors, if any, at the time, but I’d imagineMatildahad their pick of any prime location, at least initially. The RSC had a lot of high profile producers ready to jump on board for the Broadway transfer, and it was highly unusual that they ultimately ended up with only one other credited producer, the Dodgers. Compare that to the 22 producers and 1 associate producer listed forKinky Boots(and that number is even higher if you count each individual name in some of the producing conglomerates/companies that got credit)."
And this right here, combined with Warchus getting up on stage at an industry event saying that Americans couldn't make musicals as good as Brits, and you have yourself the story of how Matilda lost the Tony. And really lost it before it played a single performance on Broadway due to how they selected their producer. That said, there's no kinder man on Broadway than Michael David."
Did he really say that? Do you know the exact words? I’m just surprised because besides being blatantly untrue and the reality being the exact opposite (ie Americans, at least those that present work in New York obviously make better musicals than Brits, with Matilda being a rare exception) in my opinion…it just seems like a bad idea to say ‘READ THE ROOM.’
"You can't overrate Bernadette Peters. She is such a genius. There's a moment in "Too Many Mornings" and Bernadette doing 'I wore green the last time' - It's a voice that is just already given up - it is so sorrowful. Tragic. You can see from that moment the show is going to be headed into such dark territory and it hinges on this tiny throwaway moment of the voice." - Ben Brantley (2022)
"Bernadette's whole, stunning performance [as Rose in Gypsy] galvanized the actors capable of letting loose with her. Bernadette's Rose did take its rightful place, but too late, and unseen by too many who should have seen it" Arthur Laurents (2009)
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Phantom4ever
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/17/07
#15Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/10/24 at 5:45pm
The original 42nd Street had to move across the the street from the Majestic to the St. James in early 1987 when Phantom moved in. Prince wanted the Hirschfeld because it most closely resembled Her Majesty's.
Here is an article from the NY Times from Dec. 18, 1986 that discusses Mackintosh rejecting the Majestic for Phantom:
The Shubert Organization, the largest theater owner on Broadway, has lost the intense competition to house ''Phantom of the Opera,'' the new Andrew Lloyd Webber musical that is the biggest hit of the London theater season, the show's producer said yesterday.
The musical, which opened in London on Oct. 9, is expected to be an equally big hit when it opens on Broadway next fall.
Cameron Mackintosh, the show's producer, confirmed by telephone from Washington yesterday afternoon that he had told Bernard Jacobs, president of the Shubert Organization, that for ''technical and artistic reasons,'' the Majestic Theater would not be suitable for ''Phantom.''
The Shuberts consider the Majestic, a 1,655-seat theater, to be the best theater on Broadway.
In response to Mr. Mackintosh's statement, Mr. Jacobs would only say, ''I disagree that the Majestic isn't the right theater for the show.''
Two other major theater owners -the Nederlander Organization and Jujamcyn Theaters - have been competing with the Shuberts to house ''Phantom.'' According to a source close to the show, the most likely contenders now are the 1,200-seat Martin Beck Theater, which is owned by Jujamcyn, or the 1,621-seat Minskoff Theater, which is owned by Nederlander. The revival of ''Sweet Charity'' is currently playing at the Minskoff, while the Martin Beck is dark. A 'Double Problem'
''I felt like the angel of death when I told Bernie,'' Mr. Mackintosh said, ''but I didn't want to muck him around.''
''We have this double problem of artistic and technical demands,'' said Mr. Mackintosh, who is in Washington to oversee the pre-Broadway run of ''Les Miserables.'' ''Audience contact is a key ingredient of the production. 'Phantom' is an old-fashioned show.''
The musical, directed by Harold Prince, has special effects that demand clear visibility throughout the theater, Mr. Mackintosh said. After touring the Majestic with the set designer, Maria Bjornson, Mr. Mackintosh said, they came to the conclusion that ''Phantom'' would not work in the theater.
Another source close to the show said Mr. Prince had approval over where it would run. Through a representative, Mr. Prince indicated that he would base his decision on the list of theaters developed by Ms. Bjornson
Phantom4ever
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/17/07
#16Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/10/24 at 5:50pm
And here is the NY Times article from March 20, 1987 about the Shuberts finally getting Phantom booked into the Majestic:
The Shubert Organization this week captured one of the few prizes left in a boom-or-bust industry when a British producer, Cameron Mackintosh, agreed to bring ''The Phantom of the Opera,'' the biggest hit of the London season, to the Majestic Theater, a Shubert-owned house, in November.
To get the lucrative show, however, Shubert - Broadway's biggest theater owner and among its most influential producers - made significant concessions to Mr. Mackintosh, including paying for more than $500,000 worth of construction in the theater specifically for the show, according to sources close to the negotiations who asked not be be identified.
The $7 million Andrew Lloyd Webber musical, which is staged by Hal Prince and produced by Mr. Mackintosh, opened in October at Her Majesty's Theater in the West End. At the time, New York's three major theater owners - Jujamcyn Theaters and the Nederlander Organization, in addition to Shubert - began negotiating with Mr. Mackintosh for the Broadway booking, which is expected to generate about $40,000 a week in rent. The Independence of Success
Mr. Mackintosh's success as a producer of such hits as ''Cats'' and ''Les Miserables'' has won him independence from the Broadway theater owners, who often produce the shows in their houses. In December, he told the president of the Shubert Organization, Bernard Jacobs, that the Majestic was not suitable for ''Phantom,'' in the belief that the theater's steeply raked auditorium and a balcony that overhangs the 10th row of the orchestra would limit views of some of the musical's special effects, particularly those that require a view of the auditorium ceiling.
Among the other theaters considered were the Mark Hellinger, which is owned by Nederlander, and the Martin Beck, which is owned by Jujamcyn. The Majestic and the Hellinger each have about 400 more seats than the Beck, and thus would yield a considerably higher box office gross. But the Beck most closely resembles the show's London home, the 1,100-seat Her Majesty's.
Though the producer was on the verge of making a deal for the show to go into the Beck, Mr. Jacobs was determined to book it into the Majestic, widely regarded as one of the best houses on Broadway. An Expert Opinion
The Shubert Organization dispatched a consultant, Pete Feller, who is one of the most respected theater technicians in the industry, to see ''Phantom'' in London and to determine whether it could go into the Majestic without a change of design.
Mr. Feller, reached yesterday in New Haven, where he was working on a touring production of ''Cats,'' said he had been sent to assess whether any Broadway theater could reproduce the show being seen in London. ''No Broadway theaters are as deep as British theaters,'' Mr. Feller said. He suggested some alterations to the Majestic that would make the potentially more profitable theater feasible without substantial set design changes.
''What has made the Majestic a possibility,'' Mr. Mackintosh said, ''is the Shuberts taking on the structural changes.'
Though the total cost of those changes is unclear, estimates range between $500,000 and $1 million. Many of those in the industry who have seen the show in London maintain that there still will be seats with obstructed views - a problem Shubert has had with both ''Cats'' and ''Evita.''
''In every show there are some seats that are borderline,'' Mr. Jacobs said Wednesday. ''If there are any seats we deem to be obstructed, we will label them as such and price them accordingly.'' Mr. Jacobs said he felt there would be no obstructed-view seats for the show.
With the booking of ''Phantom'' at the Majestic, the Shubert Organization adds one more musical with a potential for running several years or longer to a list that includes, ''Cats,'' ''Les Miserables,'' ''A Chorus Line,'' ''Drood'' and ''42d Street,'' the Majestic's current tenant. ''Any time you put a theater away,'' Mr. Jacobs said, ''it's good for the business.''
#17Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/10/24 at 6:15pm
“Neither the Winter Garden nor the Shubert really have a center aisle.”
The Shubert used to…They reconfigured the orchestra to accommodate Matilda then reconfigured back once it closed. Center aisle went to 7th or 8th row then split back to a standard 3 section orchestra .
“why take the Minskoff when the Majestic seemed like such a perfect place for a show like Phamtom.”
That’s the thing, the Majestic was not a perfect place. Shuberts had to dig into the bedrock to make it work.
#18Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/10/24 at 7:15pm
Just wanted to say thanks to Phantom4Ever - it's posts like those that make me love this message board :)
#19Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/11/24 at 8:57am
FANtomFollies said: "Just wanted to say thanks to Phantom4Ever - it's posts like those that make me love this message board :)"
Indeed. Thank you Phantom4Ever for sharing two very intriguing pieces of Phantom history which I'd not seen before.
"Michael Riedel...The Perez Hilton of the New York Theatre scene"
- Craig Hepworth, What's On Stage
Det95
Featured Actor Joined: 10/14/19
#20Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/11/24 at 12:15pm
OhHiJohnny said: "The current Sweeney revival was at one point rumored to take the St James (before Woods had their first extension)."
I thought the Piano Lesson was announced for the St. James after ITW, but they got bumped to the Barrymore
OhHiii
Broadway Star Joined: 4/30/16
#21Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/11/24 at 1:29pm
binau said: "OhHiii said: "Did he really say that? Do you know the exact words? I’m just surprised because besides being blatantly untrue and the reality being the exact opposite (ie Americans, at least those that present work in New York obviously make better musicals than Brits, with Matilda being a rare exception) in my opinion…it just seems like a bad idea to say ‘READ THE ROOM.’"
He did indeed. I don't know the exact quote, but it was the nail in the coffin. As I said, they ruffled all of their co-producers' feathers by not giving them above title billing, so their fate was all but sealed pretty early. Harvey and Cyndi were also essentially under the marquee at the Hirschfeld that Tony season kissing babies. It unfortunately was unlikely to ever go to Matilda.
saxpower
Featured Actor Joined: 9/14/16
#22Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/11/24 at 2:02pm
How much was the Hellinger really in the mix for Phantom? If it did go in there, we'd have an additional active theatre (assuming the Nederlanders didn't sell Times Square Church one of their other theatres).
AEA AGMA SM
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/13/09
#23Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/11/24 at 2:13pm
By that point it was very much known as a theatre that housed a bunch of flops and special engagements. Two of those flops had even been Hal Prince projects, Grind and A Doll's Life. While the odds of Phantom flopping were pretty slim, it was an instant success in London, hence Cameron Mackintosh having much more pull with the various landlords, theatre people can be incredibly superstitious and I’d imagine Prince wasn’t eager to put a third show there in such a relatively short time span.
jagman106
Stand-by Joined: 7/17/19
#24Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/11/24 at 3:12pm
Det95 said: "OhHiJohnny said: "The current Sweeney revival was at one point rumored to take the St James (before Woods had their first extension)."
I thought the Piano Lesson was announced for the St. James after ITW, but they got bumped to the Barrymore"
Actually, "The Piano Lesson" was announced to open at the St. James in fall of 2022 and the marquis was already up on the theater when the "Into the Woods" transfer happened. "ITW" bumped "TPL" to the Barrymore. "TPL" only ran for 3 weeks after "ITW" closed. "Sweeney" could have gone into the St. James based on timing, but I guess Jujamcyn wanted their production of "New York, New York" for the St. James instead. Someone with actual knowledge of that situation can elaborate further.
#25Theatres Offered - But Kindly Declined.
Posted: 1/11/24 at 3:47pm
OhHiii said: "binau said: "OhHiii said: "Did he really say that? Do you know the exact words? I’m just surprised because besides being blatantly untrue and the reality being the exact opposite (ie Americans, at least those that present work in New York obviously make better musicals than Brits, with Matilda being a rare exception) in my opinion…it just seems like a bad idea to say ‘READ THE ROOM.’"
He did indeed. I don't know the exact quote, but it was the nail in the coffin. As I said, they ruffledallof their co-producers' feathers by not giving them above title billing, so their fate was all but sealed pretty early. Harvey and Cyndi were also essentially under the marquee at the Hirschfeld that Tony season kissing babies. It unfortunately was unlikely to ever go to Matilda."
If I recall correctly, there was also talk that part of the reason why Matilda lost votes for the Tony was because they hummed and hawed with their selection of producers that they turned off a lot of investors, producers, and theatre owners. To be honest, I didn't enjoy Matilda, I was bored. I liked Kinky Boots, but not its very forgettable. The show that season that I enjoyed the most was the revivals (Pippin, and Drood). Also, I have such low expectations from Bring It On, and enjoyed it the most of the new musicals, if I'm being honest
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