Chess - London vs Broadway
Chess - London vs Broadway
ErinDillyFan
Broadway Star Joined: 7/14/06
#1Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/10/13 at 12:11pm
For those that have seen productions of both books.
Which plot do you prefer?
#2Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/10/13 at 3:24pm
Each plot has its own advantages, but neither are truly the best. The problem is, the story is too high-brow. The idea of a story about people's relationships set against an international chess match, which would at the same time illustrate and illuminate the Cold War's East/West conflict, tries to cover too many bases at once, and aside from the love triangle, I'd argue it's pretty much only entertaining to intellectuals.
Tim Rice actually has some very high-brow ideas in all of his shows, but his work with Andrew Lloyd Webber made them far more accessible because ALW was the romantic to TR's cynic and paired TR's intellectual and complicated ideas (if not always Sondheim-level lyrics, and they often weren't) with a simplistic, familiar sounding style of score that made it palatable to the ears of audiences (director Jim Sharman has pointed this out, and TR himself has said their respective outlooks are because "I had too much love as a child and Andrew had too little"). Without ALW, and with the composers of ABBA on their first musical, there were bound to be issues like this. The hit singles like "One Night in Bangkok," "I Know Him So Well," and "Someone Else's Story" proved Benny, Bjorn, and Tim were still on the mark as pop songwriters, but that was about all Chess had going for it.
What also works against it is that the plot is trying to be more about the two opponents than the show's actual protagonist: Florence. No matter the version, everything in the actual plot happens to -- or because of -- her. But the show almost never makes her central to the proceedings in any version, trying to make you care about the American or Russian chess player. Unless and until someone tries a rewrite that puts Florence at the focus, it's not going to work.
Formerly gvendo2005
Broadway Legend
joined: 5/1/05
Blocked: After Eight, suestorm, david_fick, emlodik, lovebwy, Dave28282, joevitus, BorisTomashevsky
Updated On: 6/10/13 at 03:24 PM
Broadway Legend
joined: 5/1/05
Blocked: After Eight, suestorm, david_fick, emlodik, lovebwy, Dave28282, joevitus, BorisTomashevsky
#2Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/10/13 at 3:51pmThe main problem is that they never came up with a coherent plot for the original concept album, Read the synopsis included with that recording. It is loaded with incidents but nothing really ties together. It is a wonderful score but trying to weave a plot through those songs is a challenge that they have never really solved.
Cast albums are NOT "soundtracks."
Live theatre does not use a "soundtrack." If it did, it wouldn't be live theatre!
I host a weekly one-hour radio program featuring cast album selections as well as songs by cabaret, jazz and theatre artists. The program, FRONT ROW CENTRE is heard Sundays 9 to 10 am and also Saturdays from 8 to 9 am (eastern times) on www.proudfm.com
Owen22
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/24/11
#3Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/10/13 at 4:33pmEasily the Broadway version. It's not perfect, but every time they try to stage the Brit version its an incoherent mess with a faulty structure and impossible book. At least Richard Nelson tried to do something with the characters, and used the inherent irony the story offered.
ErinDillyFan
Broadway Star Joined: 7/14/06
#4Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/10/13 at 5:18pm
I saw what was essentially the broadway book at CCM and the London book at the Ann Arbor Civic Theater. So, with only one production to go on the director's skill is very much in question. But, I found the CCM version had a much more coherent book, with Florence background and motivations at the core. With the Soviet Government and the US government very much the "players" in this game of chess. A community theater is not always a very good way to judge a musical. But, that story (from the director's notes the London version "which gets back to the soul of the piece"). While the individual voices were of very good quality I found that even with lack of acting, directoral skills, and sets taken into account, the show lacked character motivation. It seemed that the Soviet handler moved all the pieces and out of nowhere Florence's father was dangled as a carrot. It just seemed way to simplistic more like checkers. The broadway version had complex characters and motivations and back story worthy of a chess match with an equally worthy opponent in the US government.
Updated On: 6/10/13 at 05:18 PM
#5Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/10/13 at 6:41pm
The Broadway book is pretty good for all the reasons you guys state, but at the same time, it's not the perfect direction for the show.
Here's what it did clear up: it got rid of the silly split-match format in the London book (the original plot-line, such as it was, involved not one, but two, matches -- one between the American and the Russian, and one between the Russian and a new Russian opponent). As a fundamental matter of dramatic principle, the split-match format is the key weakness of the London show. For their flaws (all of them have second-act problems), the later variations have a much greater coherency, which stems from the fact that the single chess match acts as a framing event for the dramatic action.
Broadway also got to the first chess match in considerably less time than London, shortening the overloaded introductory segment, particularly with the cuts made after opening night. It even managed to have a very coherent plot through-line in the second act. Compared to the European and Australian versions, which tend to simply throw a bunch of songs at the dramatic problems in Act II, this is in itself significant.
But it got a lot wrong, too. There is a self-serious ponderousness to much of Nelson's drab, dull, and sometimes tasteless dialogue, and the attempts at variation, such as the "fart joke" Freddie gives in the top of the first act, are rarely funny and tend to cheapen the characters. There is a genuine nasty streak to the principals in Nelson's version of Chess as well: Freddie is a caricature of himself, and one is barely able to struggle to make him a realistic human being; Walter is unthinkably despicable and almost manages to rehabilitate Molokov by comparison; even Florence and Anatoly come off as insufferable. Svetlana, in a microscopic part, is the only one who comes out well (particularly in her scene in Act Two with Anatoly and Molokov, which is one moment/element I really like); the Arbiter is ridiculous yet somehow also inconsequential. Nelson's characters are thoroughly drawn, but unfortunately are written in such a way that the audience doesn't end up liking any of them.
The most obvious flaw is that much of the second act material, and particularly the ending, are downright repellent. Of the last four scenes, only the one that consists almost entirely of "Endgame" is watchable. (In its context, "Pity the Child" in particular is physically uncomfortable to sit through.) Then there's the scene where Florence meets her father, the one with the Hungarian lullaby? Given that this old man is very clearly the actor who played her father in the prologue, the "twist" is notoriously difficult for audiences to forgive. The harsh ending, where Florence and Walter yell at each other and each give a short, yet trite, speech before the unfortunate "Anthem (Reprise)" finale, does not sell this well, and sends an audience home drained after a musical that is too long, too heavy, and too generally misanthropic.
Nelson's show is unrelenting in its negativity. Romance, ambition, childhood dreams, political idealism, and just plain human decency have to be systematically crushed by the overwhelming, invincible and uncaring machines of state. I am not one to be in the least bit idealistic about the state, but still, the Broadway Chess is a difficult, bitter pill to swallow. The whole piece can only be enjoyed despite itself.
And while a good cast can in fact overcome a number of these weaknesses, the fact is that the Broadway cast was downright excellent and still failed.
Formerly gvendo2005
Broadway Legend
joined: 5/1/05
Blocked: After Eight, suestorm, david_fick, emlodik, lovebwy, Dave28282, joevitus, BorisTomashevsky
Updated On: 6/10/13 at 06:41 PM
Broadway Legend
joined: 5/1/05
Blocked: After Eight, suestorm, david_fick, emlodik, lovebwy, Dave28282, joevitus, BorisTomashevsky
SporkGoddess
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/27/05
#6Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/10/13 at 7:50pmYeah, I think one of Chess's biggest problems is that the characters are just so unlikable and unpleasant. By the end I don't really care about what happens to any of them, save for maybe Svetlana.
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
#7Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/10/13 at 8:07pmI feel like none of the characters are particularly likable, though I've felt for Svetlana in some productions. The hope for me would be to find a version in which Florence was relatable and more central to the action.
ARTc
Stand-by Joined: 11/4/11
#8Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/10/13 at 10:11pmI saw both the London and Broadway versions. I was rather disappointed when I saw it in London. I loved the Broadway version. Call me an intellectual. :)
#9Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/10/13 at 10:27pm
It's too bad we never got to see what Bennett had planned.
One thing to keep in mind--something I didn't realize for a long time is that the concept album doesn't directly reflect the London stage show. For example The Story of Chess was cut down and moved to the front (I always wondered if on stage they got away with having such a long, non-plot based number at the very end of the show.)
#10Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/10/13 at 11:18pm
The "Complete Cast Recording" in English from the Danish version in 1995 is a reconstruction of the London stage version, with the addition of "Someone Else's Story." It's the only version that accurately depicts the flow of the show at that moment in its conception, albeit with the inclusion of that later song and the changing of several lyrics to emphasize Freddie the American's mental and emotional instability (a plot point which replaced the ambiguity over his sexuality in earlier versions of the show).
The Actor's Fund version of the show cuts the prologue "Story of Chess" number from the start of the show, but includes a shorter, mournful solo version for the Arbiter near the end of the show.
ErinDillyFan
Broadway Star Joined: 7/14/06
#11Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/11/13 at 10:06am
I have to add that in Community Theater (London version) they kept in the ballet, which was awkward. It is very interesting to hear the comments about the broadway version, since I thoroughly enjoyed the production at CCM. I found all the characters sympathetic and their actions reasonable to the events. I always wonder what changes the director made to make that impression on me, or is it just me?
I saw a student production of "Parade" that had none of the problems I heard discribed about the broadway production and assumed it was a combination of the director/actors that adapted perfectly or maybe I see things differently than others.
nycmusical
Chorus Member Joined: 2/9/11
#12Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/11/13 at 11:04am
The Brit version is good but Broadway's is much better.
I remember seeing it with my fiancé who was so impressed by the talented cast and
their power.
#13Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/11/13 at 2:22pmRecommended viewing: the OBC of CHESS at the Lincoln Center Library. No, the show isn't good. Yes, the book is a mess, but David Carroll and especially Judy Kuhn were absolutely amazing. I think it does probably require an actress of Kuhn's extreme vulnerability to make Florence sympathetic, but Judy Kuhn's final moment - singing a reprise of "Anthem" completely broken was thrilling and heartbreaking.
dsapery
Swing Joined: 5/31/07
#14Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/12/13 at 7:27am
In some ways, I think of the two shows as being totally different. When I saw it in London, I immediately thought "that plot will never make it on Broadway" so I wasn't surprised when it was completely changed or NY.
That said, I thought that London was a better rendition.
But about 2 years ago, Eric Schaeffer directed a production at Signature Theatre near Washington DC. He completely reworked the show -- with the writers' blessing -- and IMHO finally got it right. Unfortunately that production never went anywhere beyond Signature.
#15Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/12/13 at 8:42amI have nothing really to add to this, except this thread is one of the reason I come to this site. Great insights around .
Well I didn't want to get into it, but he's a Satanist.
Every full moon he sacrifices 4 puppies to the Dark Lord and smears their blood on his paino.
This should help you understand the score for Wicked a little bit more.
Tazber's: Reply to
Is Stephen Schwartz a Practicing Christian
#16Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/12/13 at 9:30amThere is a dramaturge who created an absolutely brilliant version of the Broadway book of Chess that managed to mitigate most of the problems people have with that version. It's still not perfect, but (at least on paper) you come out of it maybe being able to care about the characters and feeling that the evening is a satisfying dramatic whole.
Formerly gvendo2005
Broadway Legend
joined: 5/1/05
Blocked: After Eight, suestorm, david_fick, emlodik, lovebwy, Dave28282, joevitus, BorisTomashevsky
Broadway Legend
joined: 5/1/05
Blocked: After Eight, suestorm, david_fick, emlodik, lovebwy, Dave28282, joevitus, BorisTomashevsky
sanda
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/10/04
#17Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/12/13 at 12:33pmI thought London version is pretty perfect. Bennett's choreography and staging was stunning. Korberg and Page were perfect as well.
karloskar2
Chorus Member Joined: 6/12/13
#18Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/12/13 at 8:55pm
Michael Bennett left the production before rehearsals started so he did none of the choreography or staging. He was responsible for the design and casting decisions, neither of which suited Trevor Nunn who took over as director. If Nunn had been on board from the start the London production would have been very different, and the changes he insisted on for Broadway would not have been so drastic.
When searching for the best version of Chess it is also worth considering the Swedish language production, which is quite different from any other version. A shorter time scale (4 days) and a single location (Merano, after a prologue in Moscow) seems to solve some book problems but creates a major new one when it comes to believing the Florence/Anatoly romance. Svetlana features prominently from the start and has a major new song (he is a man,he is a child),while I know him so well becomes an argument between the two women. This does add to the dramatic tension, and you can see why Florence and Anatoly want to get away from slightly unstable Svetlana and drama queen Freddie. BUT as usual he goes back to Moscow and she's left wondering whether the audience have a better understanding of what just happened than she does. we don't.
I'm not sure there will ever be a perfect version of Chess, but Tim Rice seems to prefer the Idina/Groban/Pascal concert version which could play pretty well if you cut Merano and do a major trim of the opening ceremony.
logan2
Leading Actor Joined: 6/15/04
#19Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/12/13 at 9:08pm
Luckily, you don't have to go to Lincoln Center Archive to see the OBC of Chess. Wink...nod...
I still don't get that weird revolving set. It looked like that cave where Catwoman fell down the chasm in the old Batman TV series.
#20Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/12/13 at 9:13pm
I don't consider the Swedish production a contender at all. For all its simplifying, setting it during one week in Merano both omits the show's most famous song, and dispenses with most of the second act as we know it.
Tim, Benny, and Bjorn had an idea in 1985. The songs and characters are rooted in 1985. Revisions this late in the game risk sounding interpolated, lacking the tone of either original. That original is what Chess intrinsically is, good or bad, and is what the world should see.
Formerly gvendo2005
Broadway Legend
joined: 5/1/05
Blocked: After Eight, suestorm, david_fick, emlodik, lovebwy, Dave28282, joevitus, BorisTomashevsky
Broadway Legend
joined: 5/1/05
Blocked: After Eight, suestorm, david_fick, emlodik, lovebwy, Dave28282, joevitus, BorisTomashevsky
karloskar2
Chorus Member Joined: 6/12/13
#21Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/12/13 at 9:35pmthe concept album had huge holes in the plot which needed to be resolved dramatically for the show to play coherently in the theatre. This was not accomplished in either the London or Broadway productions for a variety of reasons, and the many revisions made over the years by various directors and writers has led to much confusion. Rice has made clear which version he now prefers, and surely that should be respected.
#22Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/12/13 at 9:44pmWe'd respect it if he could decide once and for all "which version he now prefers." He allows yet more revisions and variations routinely. Even the recent actor/musician tour of Chess which followed the Albert Hall concert made yet more cuts and changes.
Formerly gvendo2005
Broadway Legend
joined: 5/1/05
Blocked: After Eight, suestorm, david_fick, emlodik, lovebwy, Dave28282, joevitus, BorisTomashevsky
Broadway Legend
joined: 5/1/05
Blocked: After Eight, suestorm, david_fick, emlodik, lovebwy, Dave28282, joevitus, BorisTomashevsky
Owen22
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/24/11
#23Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/12/13 at 9:48pmWe also can't put all the blame on the book. Some of the songs, as glorious as most of them are, kinda screw themselves dramatically. And there is also a contradictory quality. Within a couple days Florence sings of Anatoly that she "knows him so well" and then claims "maybe its best to love a stranger, well that's what I've done...".
#24Chess - London vs Broadway
Posted: 6/12/13 at 10:30pmThe Sydney production was set in a hotel in Bangkok .
Well I didn't want to get into it, but he's a Satanist.
Every full moon he sacrifices 4 puppies to the Dark Lord and smears their blood on his paino.
This should help you understand the score for Wicked a little bit more.
Tazber's: Reply to
Is Stephen Schwartz a Practicing Christian
Videos