thoughts on PIRATE QUEEN
thoughts on PIRATE QUEEN
queenbee2
Featured Actor Joined: 7/13/06
#0thoughts on PIRATE QUEEN
Posted: 10/8/06 at 11:48am
I'm back in New York after a great Chicago trip. Dad and I talked about the show non-stop on the drive home. The good, the not so good. And I've had a few days to think more about what I saw.
Yes, there is a lot of work left to be done. Some scenes don't work. Some characters are difficult to understand. The climax of the show is a bit unclear. The tone of the scenes in England need clarification. Some are small issues, some are bigger. But for a show of this magnitude, in its first week of previews, I think we as theater fans have reason to be optimistic.
I've been poking around various message boards since I've been back, and have to say some of the comments I've been reading lean more towards "I hope this show fails" rather than "here's what I think they could do to fix it". I read someone called this show a "turkey" already. Really? You can say that of a show in its first week. Someone asked, "will they still bring this to Broadway?" Seriously? The show is already in better shape than some of the drek currently taking up space in Broadway houses. I think we have to remember this is a show that is still, for all intents and purposes, IN REHEARSAL. The reason they went to Chicago before opening in New York is to see what works and what doesn't. Sure, as I've said, there are most definitely things that don't work. And we can only hope that people intelligent enough to bring us shows like Les Miz and Saigon, Ragtime and Grapes of Wrath are intelligent enough to see where those flaws are. But I would hope, as lovers of musical theater (I would assume that's why we're on these boards) we would be pulling for them to fix these issues. Maybe I'm just an idealist.
I felt the score was incredibly powerful, and have not been able to shake certain tunes from my head. "I'll Be There" could be one of S & B's most powerful ballads to date. "I Dismiss You" has the intense emotion of "The Confrontation" in Les Miz. "A Day Beyond Belclaire" and "Sail To the Stars" could pack as strong a punch as "One Day More" (if they had strong choral endings rather than moody orchestral playoffs).
The set blew my mind. The costumes were breath taking. And we cannot overlook the performances across the board. A remarkable ensemble led by a leading lady with acting chops and a huge voice. Hadley singing his brains out while portraying an honest hero. Marcus bringing huge stage presence, interesting unexpected choices and powerful vocals to a character that could be very one dimensional in the wrong hands (I read on one message board that he was too good an actor, too handsome, and too strong a singer for the role. Not sure how to respond to "criticism" like that). Jeff McCarthy brings gravitas and passion to a one act role that could be completely forgetable on another actor. And William Youmans draws you in as the villanous Lord Bingham, the man you love to hate. I've said before that Linda's material is the most challenging as Queen Elizabeth, but I don't think that's any fault of the actress. I just think they need to reconsider where they want her vocal material to lie if they want the audience to connect to her character and that integral part of the story.
The biggest flaw I see, looking back on the show, is that I'm not sure exactly what the climax of the show is. The end seems to wrap up rather quickly, and doesn't pack enough of an emotional punch at this point. Hopefully this is something that can be addressed. It might be a big change that will take time between Chicago and New York. If they can focus for us as an audience more of what the exact conflict is we are supposed to watch unfold and resolve, I think we'd have a much more satisfying evening of theater.
I realize now that I am repeating much of what I said in my reviews from the other day, so I'm not sure what the point of this post was, other than to say, let's remember this is a work in progress. I for one am thankful that at least someone is trying to create a NEW/ORIGINAL musical based on an historical figure, rather than recycling tunes we've heard a thousand times and forcing them into some meaningless plot.
I was fortunate enough to be at the first week of previews for Wicked in San Francisco, and I have to say it was a very different show than the one many of us have fallen in love with here on Broadway. I would just hope that as fans of the theater we would trust that intelligent people are at the helm of Pirate Queen and are doing their best to improve the show on a daily basis.
I just don't want us to scare off other writers from attempting to write original material.
I'm seeing Chorus Line next week. And I can't wait.
-qb
GilmoreGirlO2
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/13/05
#1re: thoughts on PIRATE QUEEN
Posted: 10/8/06 at 12:01pmThank you so much for this review/post. While I haven't seen the show, yet, from all of the reviews I've read, I completely agree with all that you said. It is absolutely a work in progress, and, from what I've heard, many have said it truly has the potential to be a masterpiece. Thanks again for this post!
#2re: thoughts on PIRATE QUEEN
Posted: 10/8/06 at 12:03pmWell, I called it a "turkey" because I don't think that there is much that can be done to save this show from mediocrity unless they do some MAJOR rewrites. That said, I certainly hope they can fix it, and that it does well.
queenbee2
Featured Actor Joined: 7/13/06
#3re: thoughts on PIRATE QUEEN
Posted: 10/8/06 at 12:34pm
Mr. Baritione-
I appreciate you saying you hope they fix it and the show does well. I just thought that throwing out terms like "turkey" at this point in the process is a bit premature. Believe me, I have nothing vested in this other than hoping we have a great new show to enjoy here in NY. But if the show ends up a mess, what can you do. In the meantime, I just think it's important at this phase of their process for comments to be constructive while they are trying to "construct" the show. Hope that makes sense.
By the way, too bad nobody writes good parts for Baritones anymore, huh? Why does everything have to be so high for you boys?
-qb
#4re: thoughts on PIRATE QUEEN
Posted: 10/8/06 at 12:35pmqb- so nice to read your post. You always seem to choose your words so carefully and take the time to actually think about what it is you want to express before you post. That is really apreciated and very refreshing!
#5re: thoughts on PIRATE QUEEN
Posted: 10/8/06 at 1:13pm
qb, a very well written post. I've heard producers complain that the internet with its instant worldwide communication has made it difficult to discretely fix up a show out of town. Certainly one can't determine in the first week whether or not a show is a "turkey". Speaking of shows that tried out in Chicago, I saw "Aida" in its first week, and it was an absolute disaster then. The relationship between Aida and Ramades made no sense. One minute she was a resentful slave and the next minute she was kissing him. Had I been posting to a board like this then I would have said Disney should pack it up and sell the sets for whatever they could get. While I still don't consider Aida to be a great piece, the show that arrived in New York was far better than what they started with.
As far as Pirate Queen goes, I agree with everything you've said, other than your praise of the score. The score is pretty, and the Irish bits are fun, but where are the great songs? Yes, "I'll Be There" is a nice ballad, but I don't think there's one song in there otherwise that has the impact of what B&S created for Les Mis or Miss Saigon. This concerns me, having observed Martin Guerre being rewritten and revised over and over without any real improvement having been made. I wonder if Marc Shaiman would let them use "La Resistance" from the South Park movie? That's actually the best B&S song I've heard since Miss Saigon.
I certainly don't think this show is a turkey. If they took what's on that stage in Chicago right now and put it up in New York I think they'd get mixed reviews and run for a year or so. Tighten up the pacing, add one or two good songs and get us to really care about the story, and I think this thing could be a genuine hit.
Also, those potty mouths up there better stop saying the word "Sh*t", or I'm not bringing my kids to see it!
"I have got to have some professional music!" - Big Edie
daspazoo
Leading Actor Joined: 3/11/06
#6re: thoughts on PIRATE QUEEN
Posted: 10/8/06 at 2:29pm
"The biggest flaw I see, looking back on the show, is that I'm not sure exactly what the climax of the show is."
I saw PIRATE QUEEN yesterday afternoon (Sat. mat.) and I agree completley about your assessment of the climax as the biggest flaw. However, I think I can tell you exactly what it is.
The only problem is, it happens behind a screen.
*Possible Spoilers below*
The root conflict of the show is the war between England and Ireland--everything else that happens really happens as an attempt to strengthen either side's resolve against the other. So shouldn't the climax be the point where the heads of each side (Grania and Queen Elizabeth) actually get to confront each other? This does happen in the show, but only for about, say, 30 seconds. Then, when the two driving forces of the show actually start to talk, they move behind a screen.
I repeat, they move BEHIND a screen.
So the audience is robbed of seeing OR hearing this dramatic conversation and is ridiculed by just watching the Queen's servants and subjects lean and and repeat scattered phrases to each other. This is how the plot gets resolved and WE DON'T HEAR A WORD OF IT.
Maddening. Imagine SWEENEY TODD just skipping the entire 'City On Fire' and final sequence to when everyone's dead. Especially goes, as many others have mentioned, the show has A LOT going for it up until that point AND they have the start of a great song for the two of them, but then it just abruptly ends and they go behind a screen. THey should rewrite the whole English section late in Act Two to focus on just the Queen and Grania and give them a big whole number to confront each other and find resolution, not just the snippet they have now. It's just a shame to let it end like that.
The other things I need should get tweaked:
-the Queen's songs need to get re-written or lowered or something to make them intelligible. No one knows what the hell she's saying half the time.
-the scenes between the Queen and Bingham need to get rewritten to be more confrontational and dramatic. They need music like they currently have elsewhere in the show during 'The Dismissal' and less of the operetta they have right now. It just doesn't drive anywhere.
-Cut the other English characters (servants/subjects) alltogether. They're just not interesting enough and aren't really involved in the central plot as the show has it. It's abotu the Irish fighting back against the Queen. Irish/Queen.
-Find some big payoff endings to the big numbers, like both Stephanie and Hadley's solos in Act One and the choral numbers that end both Acts. The audience wants an end with a BANG and not a whimpering out. The ending of Act One finale is crying out, no DYING, for a big chorus acapella section.
-Cut down the transition staging between scenes throughout, especially in the first half of Act One--I just wanted them to get on with the story already. It dragged a lot.
-In Act Two, when the soldies are repairing the Irish ship's sails--let us see it AFTER it's repaired. They already have the set piece from Act One, so just devise a transition. The WHOLE audience is WAITING for it, especially as there's a whole number with them repairing the sail. The payoff needs to be seeing the sail triumphantly flying again.
BUT, as many others have mentioned, there are a lot of strong points in the show. I loved all the performers, esp. Stephanie and Jeff, and Hadley is just a knock-out, and a lot of the staging is creative and imaginative, and the design elements are really inventive and gorgeous. There is a really strong show on that stage somewhere, but they just need to find it.
..and please, for God's sake, write an actual climax.
CHRIS
P.S. Saw THE PILLOWMAN at Steppenwolf last night. One of the best straights plays I've seen. An absolute knockout. If you can see one show in Chicago, make it PILLOWMAN.
...this bird is singing.
Updated On: 10/8/06 at 02:29 PM
daspazoo
Leading Actor Joined: 3/11/06
elf2
Swing Joined: 10/7/06
#8re: thoughts on PIRATE QUEEN
Posted: 10/8/06 at 4:05pm
>having observed Martin Guerre being rewritten and revised
>over and over without any real improvement having been made. I
Oh give it a rest. You observed nothing! You have the CDs and saw the crappy US version.
The London version received MIXED reviews. Some were great and some were terrible. However, the show that closed in London was NOTHING like what is represented on the CD. It was excellent but sadly flawed.
Aside from the scaled down orchestra (and staging at times) the UK tour was one of the most perfect shows I've ever seen. It was also one of the most passionately performed shows I've seen. Truly stunning. Described by one reviewer as a fierce musical animal and I couldn't agree more. The US version was like the Days Of Our Medieval Lives. I sat in the theatre in Mineapolis close to tears and not for the right reasons!
And heres some news for you: the reviews of the UK tour by the London press were pretty much a unanimous rave. It got fantastic reviews.
You're entitled to an opinion but please don't speak with such express authority about something you were neither involved with or witnessed.
COOOOLkid
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/15/05
#9re: thoughts on PIRATE QUEEN
Posted: 10/8/06 at 4:14pm
"You're entitled to an opinion but please don't speak with such express authority about something you were neither involved with or witnessed. "
If he's entitled to his opinion, why can't he express it? Do you have to be part of the creative team to criticize a show?
Anyways, this is about Pirate Queen.
"Hey, you! You're the worst thing to happen to musical theatre since Andrew Lloyd Webber!"
-Family Guy
elf2
Swing Joined: 10/7/06
#10re: thoughts on PIRATE QUEEN
Posted: 10/8/06 at 4:26pm
Is English not your first language? Do I have to use more simple language?
Did I say he had to be in the creative team? No!
Did I say he couldn't exprsss his opinion? No!
I just told him not to express his OPINIONS like they were gospel when his experience of the show is very limited... as he's already stated on other threads on here.
He's using his limited knowledge of Martin Guerre and now Pirate Queen to try to illustrate the decline of Boublil and Schonberg's work.
#11 PIRATE QUEEN/Martin Guerre
Posted: 10/8/06 at 10:11pm
"Oh give it a rest. You observed nothing! You have the CDs and saw the crappy US version."
Au contraire my friend, I observed PLENTY.
I heard the initial demos that were recorded in London. Maybe I don't know much about brilliant theater music, but I heard nothing of any merit there. I didn't see any of the London productions, but I do know that millions of pounds were flushed down the toilet as the thing was rewritten over and over again. The London cast recording I have is dreadful. I'm glad to hear that there ended up being a strong version of the show that toured the UK. I wasn't there, and you sound like someone who knows theater, so I'll take your word for it.
I did sit through several performances of the Minneapolis Guerre production, and that was just plain crap. (It sounds like we might be in agreement on this.) Next time I criticize Martin Guerre I will be careful to mention that I am basing my remarks on the CDs and Minneapolis production and not the UK tour.
I will say again that what I saw of Martin Guerre and its many rewrites gives me limited confidence in the prospects of B&S fixing the Pirate Queen score. I just hope there doesn't end up being a fabulous version of Pirate Queen that tours the UK and is never heard from again.
"I have got to have some professional music!" - Big Edie
daspazoo
Leading Actor Joined: 3/11/06
#12 PIRATE QUEEN/Martin Guerre
Posted: 10/9/06 at 2:10amI thought that it wasn't so much the music, as it was the endings. I would have liked a lot of things much more if there had been some sort of payoff at the end, instead of just dwindling...
...this bird is singing.
elf2
Swing Joined: 10/7/06
#13 PIRATE QUEEN/Martin Guerre
Posted: 10/9/06 at 3:01pm
>Au contraire my friend, I observed PLENTY.
But really, hearing the London CD and some "demos" recorded in London is not really observing "plenty".
Yet again, these "demos" were from the musicals early days. MUCH changed between the first preview and opening night. The show was constantly tinkered with until it *re-opened* in the November of 1996 and then it was revised considerably yet again when the cast changed in 1997. By the time it closed in 1998 it was an excellent show but yes, it was flawed.
As far as whether you liked the music or not, it's subjective. I and many others loved the music. Yes, many dislike it too but then many dislike Les Mis or Miss Saigon or Assassins or Oklahoma. Doesn't mean the music in those shows was bad.
The problems in Martin Guerre were 90 percent down to the storytelling. The book needed A LOT of work. It improved dramatically in London but by the time the UK tour opened they'd pretty much nailed the book.
>millions of pounds were flushed down the toilet as the thing
>was rewritten over and over again. The London cast recording I
Everyone involved with the show in London believed in what they were doing so yes, it was kept running while they tried to fix it and it was hardly a cash cow.
I'd disagree that the London CD was dreadful. It suffers from some odd vocals. Musically, I love it. Jonathon Tunick's orchestrations were stunning and they had one of the best bands in the West End at the time. Vocals aside, it was bordering on operatic.
>I did sit through several performances of the Minneapolis
>Guerre production, and that was just plain crap. (It sounds like
Yes I had no idea how they could take something so wonderful and turn it into something so bad.
>I will say again that what I saw of Martin Guerre and its many
>rewrites gives me limited confidence in the prospects of B&S
Well one thing they did with Guerre was take some of the tunes with weak endings (Here Comes The Morning just petered out in previews for example) and the stepped them up a notch so hopefully the original poster will get his better endings by opening night.
>I just hope there doesn't end up being a fabulous version of
>Pirate Queen that tours the UK and is never heard from again.
If that's sarcasm then so be it. I'm pretty sure I still have the clippings of the reviews in the National papers somewhere.
However, I too hope that they don't wait too long to fix Pirate Queen.
#14 PIRATE QUEEN/Martin Guerre
Posted: 10/9/06 at 3:30pm
I think Pirate Queen is effin' amazing...
it's still in its first week and myself personally, I think it could not change a friggin' thing and I would STILL adore it.
and all that I could do because of you was talk of love...
#15More on PIRATE QUEEN/Martin Guerre
Posted: 10/9/06 at 5:32pm
>But really, hearing the London CD and some "demos" recorded in London is not >really observing "plenty"
Okay, fine. I didn't observe the Martin Guerre rewrites. Bad choice of words. I did listen to them however, (Demos, London Cast CD, Minneapolis production) and I thought all of what I heard sucked.
I would be interested to learn what you feel went wrong between the UK tour and the Minneapolis production of Guerre. Was the score the same? I remember hearing before the show went up in Minneapolis that it had really been fixed up at the end of the London run, which is consistent with what you've been saying.
>>I just hope there doesn't end up being a fabulous version of
>>Pirate Queen that tours the UK and is never heard from again.
>If that's sarcasm then so be it.
I honestly intended no sarcasm, and I don't doubt that the UK Martin Guerre tour was well received and reviewed. I do hope that Pirate Queen doesn't become one of those shows that never quite comes together in its first lavish version, and later becomes a coherent work of art in a smaller more obscure presentation. I thought this happened with Sunset Boulevard, which I never enjoyed more than when I saw Petula Clarke in the North American bus and truck tour without all of those ridiculous sets.
The story of Grace O'Malley's life should be able to be made into a good musical somewhere.
"I have got to have some professional music!" - Big Edie
Updated On: 10/9/06 at 05:32 PM
#16More on PIRATE QUEEN/Martin Guerre
Posted: 10/9/06 at 5:44pmThank you for that thoughtful review, it makes a nice change around here.
"You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view - until you climb into his skin and walk around in it."
To Kill A Mockingbird
To Kill A Mockingbird
#17More on PIRATE QUEEN/Martin Guerre
Posted: 10/9/06 at 5:48pm
I only have but a minute, but I too hope that there are some big changes before the transfer to Broadway. First off, I loved Stephanie! The actors were all, as a matter of fact, BEYOND wonderful...the story is a bit confusing and not as well developed as I would have liked, but all in all, the talent is OOOOOZING fromt he stage, just wonderful to see people so excited about being in a show! I saw it on 10/6 and I can't wait to see it once it opens in NY. I agree that the show is "technically in rehearsals", so I will not judge at all. I have my fingers crossed for this one...it has potential, let's see where it goes. 
Jack: For your information, most people who meet me do not know that I am gay.
Will: Jack, blind and deaf people know you're gay. Dead people know you're gay.
Jack: Grace, when you first met me, did you know I was gay?
Grace: My dog knew.
lds19
Chorus Member Joined: 2/6/05
#18More on PIRATE QUEEN
Posted: 10/9/06 at 5:56pm
I saw the show Saturday night and it definitely has potential. Some of the criticisms above are right on the money, particularly the lack of a memorable song and the lack of what I considered to be a strong finishing song for either act in the way One Day More and Can You Hear The People Sing end the acts of Les Miz.
But the biggest problem, IMHO, is the sound and how much of the lyrics are unitelligible. And I'm at a loss as to why. I've seen at least a dozen shows in that theater and never had such a tough time understanding lyrics. One thing that surprised me was seeing all the speakers they had at the back of the house. If they're just used for special effects, they're not a problem but if actor vocals are coming through the rear speakers as well as the front speakers, that could be a big source of the problem. Even within a theater, there is a perceptible delay in sound reaching your ears from the stage (or these days, from the stage speakers). Now introduce those same sounds from a second source (rear) reaching your ears at a slightly different time and very clear singing can be turned into mush.
I hope the show staff is aware of how difficult it is to understand things. For them, familiar with the lyrics, they may not be hearing the problem since the brain tends to fill in the missing words with what it knows belongs there. But we, unfamiliar with the lyrics, are left struggling.
An earlier thread pointed out this issue but was specific as to certain characters. I thought it was pretty generic and affected everyone. Whatever they're doing, it ruining what is normally a pretty good house acoustically (although I'll add the caveat that this is our first season in center orchestra after being in left orchestra for the last year plus and the loge prior to that).
Updated On: 10/9/06 at 05:56 PM
AngusN
Broadway Star Joined: 3/23/05
#19More on PIRATE QUEEN
Posted: 10/9/06 at 6:11pmI absolutely loved the 2nd version of Martin Guerre, the West End version. It was and still is the best thing I have ever witnessed on stage. It was powerful and moving. I just don't believe that modern shows in the West End will last, no matter how good they are. The West End audience, infact, us British in general don't like embracing change. I think it was a masterpiece! I wasn't too keen on the touring version, it was too dark for my liking!
#20More on PIRATE QUEEN
Posted: 10/9/06 at 6:58pm
"So the audience is robbed of seeing OR hearing this dramatic conversation and is ridiculed by just watching the Queen's servants and subjects lean and and repeat scattered phrases to each other. This is how the plot gets resolved and WE DON'T HEAR A WORD OF IT. "
I thought this was a sophisticated and sly bit of theatricallity... no one knows what Queen Elizabeth and Grace O'Malley said to each other when they did speak in real life... pretending like the whole English/Irish conflict could be resolved in a single conversation is idiotic... and you are missing a major point... The Queen didn't give in... Ireland became a part of England... and the people of Ireland suffered horribly under English rule until Liam Neeson showed up dressed like Michael Collins... and that wasn't for hundreds of years. The conversation resolved nothing between the two nations... instead two women came to a private understanding... staging that understanding... reducing it to concrete text... it leaves nothing to the imagination and does a disservice to history... I think the ending should be tweaked... the subjects leaning in and listening and then singing... that wasn't quite what it should have been... but staging the conversation behind the screen is a way to make the ending seem positive without betraying the reality of the situation... which in life it wasn't positive at all. I do think there should be a bit more between Grace and Elizabeth leading up to the conversation... but staging the actual conversation would seriously ruin a lot of credibility and sophistication... which the production runs short of to begin with.
kmc
Jesus saves. I spend.
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