Jungle Book DRAMA!
Jungle Book DRAMA!
finebydesign
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/17/07
#1Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 12:55pm
"How much unexamined white privilege and American privilege does it take to reach a conclusion like that? Get thee to an opthamologist, Mary! It’s a vision thing, that pesky old racism. And on your way, you may want to take a short leap to blame the victim land."
The Trouble with Mary
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/31/69
#2Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 1:01pm
Oh, brother.
Sorry- that's sexist- Oh, related gender-non-specific person.
#2Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 1:01pm
Very good points by him.
I was surprised by that interview when I first read it -- I couldn't tell if she was trying to be satirical or what.
"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/31/69
#3Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 1:04pmThe only time I thought he had a point was the racism in the role of King Louis- that character is indeed very offensive to Italians.
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/22/03
#4Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 1:07pm
I love the Silk Road project.
... Asian and Middle Eastern people were never quite people, we were colorful textiles and choreographed movements and sensualized fables. We were exotic and playful and mysterious. Not quite someone you’d have lunch with ...
That's EXACTLY the requirement to have lunch with me.
Twitter @NamoInExile
Instagram none
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/31/69
GilmoreGirlO2
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/13/05
#6Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 1:23pm
Zimmerman responds with “Yeah, it was a concern. But I’ve decided to make it not a concern. I know what the lyrics say and how squeamish you can get about that. But we’ve done some things with casting that I’m not going to give away, but that I think will remove that element.” I have been told what she’s done with the casting and far from removing “that element,” she ratchets it up in a disturbingly heavy handed manner.
Does anyone know what this casting element is?
finebydesign
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/17/07
#7Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 1:33pmI think the monkeys are colorblind cast. Not Louie but everyone else.
GilmoreGirlO2
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/13/05
#8Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 1:52pmPerhaps because I am ignorant of much of the history mentioned in this post, I am having a hard time following the details (absolutely understand the sentiment). If the monkeys were color-blind cast, how does that, to the writer, “ratchet up” the racism “in a disturbingly heavy handed manner”? Not saying it shouldn’t, just trying to follow his line of thought with this.
#9Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 1:59pm
On Zimmerman’s stage, Asian and Middle Eastern people were never quite people, we were colorful textiles and choreographed movements and sensualized fables. We were exotic and playful and mysterious.
Oh, Zimmerman doesn't limit her stylized visuals to Asian and Middle Eastern people.
Not quite someone you’d have lunch with, but gilded objects that were amusing and titillating, to be enjoyed vicariously and from ample distance.
And that's where he starts losing me.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
Updated On: 6/12/13 at 01:59 PM
#10Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 1:59pm
The way I read it (and this is just a guess, I don't really know anything), I think the production probably cast Louie as a black actor, which would ratchet up the accusation that the character is racist, despite the fact that in the movie, Louie is voiced by a guy who was famous for NOT being black, so the whole "OMG, the movie is racist because the monkey is black!!!!" thing kind of goes out the window.
Anyway, if the show follows through with that thought and actually cast a black actor in the role of Louie, I could see how it would ratchet up the racism of the role rather than dispel it.
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
mpd4165
Leading Actor Joined: 8/6/09
#11Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 1:59pmHis issue seems to stem from a pattern of Orientalism he sees in Zimmerman's career. The tone of her interview I think is what finally pushed him over the edge to publically comment.
mpd4165
Leading Actor Joined: 8/6/09
#12Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 2:04pmYero-I'm pretty sure King Louis is who Andre De Shields is playing.
#13Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 2:06pmNow that you mention that, I think I heard that. Yeah, so they cast a black guy as the monkey villain, taking the accusation from the movie and making it worse/true.
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
GilmoreGirlO2
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/13/05
#14Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 2:13pm
So, they cast a black actor as the monkey villain, but blind-cast the rest of the monkeys, which puts more focus on the fact that the monkey villain is black (and, thereby, making the racism worse)? Is this the writer’s line of thought with this?
Again, no judgment on him, just trying to understand his views.
#15Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 2:20pm
It is Andre De Shields.
I knew it was just a matter of time before someone brought up the race card when I first read they cast De Shields a couple of months ago.
The character is supposed to a riff on Louis Armstrong, so casting an actor of color makes sense.
Having a character be a parody of a famous musician certainly is not racist. Choosing to make that character a monkey is probably a reflection of the era in which the film was made.
Was the original film ever accused of racism?
ETA: and while King Louis is not a "good guy", he's also not the villain of the piece. Shere Kahn is the villain.
I can't wait to see who they cast as Kaa.
....but the world goes 'round
Updated On: 6/12/13 at 02:20 PM
mpd4165
Leading Actor Joined: 8/6/09
#16Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 2:25pm
Here's the show's page, with the cast.
The Jungle Book
#17Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 2:27pm
Taz, if you Google "Disney racist," you'll get two results over and over again: the crows in Dumbo, and King Louie. I have heard over and over and over accusations that these movies are racist and read articles about it and it just bothers me because they were made in very different times.
Also, it's not fair to say they chose to make the character a monkey because they were basing it on a scene from the book.
Making King Louie into a jazzy Louis Armstrong (or, more accurately, Louie Prima) type was just attempting to tie into the pop culture trends of the time. It's no different than the vultures being designed to look and sound like the Beatles. (Or, for that matter, the crows in Dumbo, which were written and designed in the late 30s, to speak like minstrel acts. It was the popular culture.)
EDIT (to reply to your edit): Louie is *a* villain, though you are correct, not the main villain.
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Updated On: 6/12/13 at 02:27 PM
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/22/03
#18Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 2:46pmIt is foolish to deny that these things weren't problematic then and that they aren't problematic now. I'm kind of appalled that Zimmerman said, "Racism is in the eye of the beholder" because EXACTLY, Mary.
Twitter @NamoInExile
Instagram none
#19Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 2:49pmDoesn't, uh, EVERYONE behold racism and imperialism in the works of Kipling? Not to mention the fact recent journals have been discovered in which he openly admits to plagiarism.
"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."
#20Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 2:50pm
Louie Prima!
I thought I had that wrong. Thanks for clarifying.
Disney has always used pop culture references in their movies. It's a little something for the adults to enjoy that probably goes over the wee one's heads.
It would seem to me that they were honoring Prima by using his persona as the basis for a character.
Through the prism of time and stripped of its context however it can appear to be racist.
ETA: I acknowledge that perhaps I'm being a bit naive about Disney's intentions for King Louie. and I probably shouldn't comment since I wasn't around when the movie came out.
Either way, i hope it doesn't become a major issue that derails the show.
....but the world goes 'round
Updated On: 6/12/13 at 02:50 PM
#21Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 3:00pm
It wasn't just based on Prima's persona. He voiced the character and most of "I Wan'na Be Like You" was Prima just scatting and ad-libbing, doing what he was known for. Prima was pretty famously not black and Disney just hired him to do his usual schtick in the movie, since he was a popular artist at the time. Nothing to do with racism.
I was just commenting that in general, for years I've heard complaints that the character is racist from people who assume he was based on or written to impersonate a black character, even though the tiniest bit of research would disprove that.
This is not a comment on the new production, which I know nothing about and therefore, cannot judge.
This is also not a comment on Kipling's original intention, which is more or less irrelevant to the conversation.
Either way, i hope it doesn't become a major issue that derails the show.
I agree with you there. I think this has the potential to be a great production and I hope it comes to New York so I get a chance to see it.
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Updated On: 6/12/13 at 03:00 PM
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
John Adams
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/1/13
#22Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 3:04pm
Making King Louie into a jazzy Louis Armstrong (or, more accurately, Louie Prima) type was just attempting to tie into the pop culture trends of the time.
Not really, Yero. King Louie and all the apes/monkeys were designed to represent Black people, specifically. It's reflected in the music as only one element of several (including dialect, how they dance, etc.). The music is not meant to represent 'pop culture trends', but specifically Black music.
The song assigned to King Louie in the movie is interesting to me because I can see two interpretations of its theme and lyrics, "I wanna Be Just Like You".
When I choose a mindset of "I'm not equal to you, but I can learn to be", I get one interpretation.
If I choose a mindset of "I am equal to you and I want to be able to exercise the same rights/opportunities as you", I get another.
The lyrics include text that could be interpreted both ways.
finebydesign
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/17/07
#23Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 3:08pm
I heard a while back that they did not hire Louie Armstrong BECAUSE they felt it would play as racist. So Louis Prima was brought in. The Beatles comparison is interesting because they too were offered roles but declined.
Have you heard "Strange Behavior" from More Jungle Book? Def a different time.
#24Jungle Book DRAMA!
Posted: 6/12/13 at 3:10pm
Once again, King Louie was designed to sound (musically and speaking) like Louie Prima, a popular musician who was Italian, not black.
Yes, the music is meant to invoke black music, because black music (i.e., jazz) WAS the pop culture trend. Like, again, the Beatles-esque vultures later in the movie.
If you look at that one song out of context, sure, I can see how someone would be offended. But looking at the movie as a whole and all the musical, popular influences, and the time it was made in, and the people behind it, in my opinion, there is no real reason to get offended unless you are trying too hard to find one.
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
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