Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?- Page 3
Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
broadway guy
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/5/11
#50Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 12:23am
Are there certain shows you can't do if it's not by an equity production?
Like, could a non equity company pull off WICKED while keeping all the awesome effects in tact like Defying Gravity?
John Adams
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/1/13
#51Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 1:30am
>> "But how excited would you be if you saw the next Sutton Foster or Norber Leo Butz?"
Oh, very, of course! But if I'm gonna pay "Butz prices", I wanna (and expect to) see Butz. (I didn't have to use that term... but it's fun)
Since the cast isn't getting union wages (and perhaps neither are the techies), yet I'm paying the same ticket price as the Equity show playing up the street, who's pocketing the difference? ...and why should it come out of MY pocket?
Updated On: 5/3/13 at 01:30 AM
RippedMan
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/14/05
#52Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 1:34amTotally. I agree 110%. But that's why a lot of shows are going Non-Union. Because the overhead is way cheaper, but they're making the same amount of money. Plus, with a show like Catch Me, which failed on Broadway, it's less of a risk to go Non-Eq because you can make a ton of money.
John Adams
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/1/13
#53Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 1:43am
>> "But that's why a lot of shows are going Non-Union. Because the overhead is way cheaper, but they're making the same amount of money."
Yuppers. And that's my objection in a nutshell. Ticket prices are high, but I'm not getting the whole enchilada for my money.
On the plus side, talented newcomers have the opportunity to perform and build their résumés, but the ticket holder foots the bill.
Updated On: 5/3/13 at 01:43 AM
#54Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 5:29am
One good example I can think of a tour turning non equity and not loosing much quality was the Hairspray Tour, I saw the equity tour and later the non equity tour and they seemed exactly the same.
I live in a smaller market and we only get non-union tours. I saw that HAIRSPRAY tour and wouldn't have known it was non-union if I hadn't read the fact in advance.
But when GYPSY played the same theater, I wasn't sure I wanted to see a Madame Rose who had never gotten around to joining Equity.
millie_dillmount
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/22/04
#55Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 7:08amFor me it is not so much the quality of the talent (I've seen some great non-Equity actors), but as many have stated above, you're paying the same price to see a non-Equity show as you would an Equity show. The amount spent on each is vastly different, so there is really no justification as to why non-Equity shows should charge Equity-caliber prices. Other than the fact they are just looking to make a higher profit.
"We like to snark around here. Sometimes we actually talk about theater...but we try not to let that get in our way." - dramamama611
#56Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 9:17am
"But when GYPSY played the same theater, I wasn't sure I wanted to see a Madame Rose who had never gotten around to joining Equity."
I have been an Equity member, but currently am not. I gave up my card a few years ago because, where I live, it really made no sense for me to be a part of the union if I actually wanted to keep performing. I'd like to think that my talent and experience didn't immediately decline from one day to the next based on my paying dues and carrying a piece of cardboard in my wallet.
As for tours, I've never done one (but that's actually about to change this fall), but I live in an rather large tour market and I basically never have paid attention to whether a tour was union or non - I go to see a show because I want to see the show. There are usually enough potential ticket discounts out there to not make it so cost-prohibitive. I can't recall ever being disappointed with quality of production or talent.
As far as I know, ticket prices are set by the presenters (not the producers), so touring companies are at their mercy as far as that is concerned... yet seem to bear the brunt of the blame. It's almost a case of "don't shoot the messenger". 
BWW member since 2007, username changed and post count re-set in 2013.
#57Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 10:13am
Are there certain shows you can't do if it's not by an equity production?
Like, could a non equity company pull off WICKED while keeping all the awesome effects in tact like Defying Gravity?
There are a couple answers here.
First of all, I don't believe amateur rights are available for WICKED, so strictly legally speaking, no, a non-Equity company cannot do WICKED (a non-Eq Broadway tour would probably be legal, but that has not come up and probably will not for reasons I will get to in a moment).
If ANY production wants to replicate the Broadway production, they have to get permission and pay royalties to the Broadway director, choreographer, orchestrator, and designers.
Finally, when you are talking about effects or specific details about the show, there are no rules about what you can do in a non-union show. It is up to the production team to decide what they feel comfortable asking their non-union actors and stagehands to do, and hopefully the performers would speak up if they feel unsafe. Many of the effects would also need to be scaled down or cut to fit a smaller stage.
The point of a union is to create and govern work rules, what producers can and can't demand of their workers and how the workers must be compensated. Non-union, by definition, means that there is no one creating or enforcing those rules, which is why many actors on non-union tours are treated so poorly (not all - it depends on the producer).
To answer another question earlier, there are a couple different Equity contracts a non-union regional theater can use to bring in Equity members, although there is usually a limit to how many Equity actors you can use. Within New York, there is the Showcase code, which is how you see Equity actors in Fringe Festival shows and other off-off-Broadway. Outside New York, there is the Special Appearance Contract and the Guest Artist Contract. There are others and some theaters have negotiated their own unique agreements with Equity, but those are probably the ones used most often in non-union productions.
Those contracts mean that the Equity actors are getting paid, and from my experience, they are probably the only actors getting paid (or at least, getting paid more than a minuscule stipend).
I have never heard of applying to Equity for a special waiver to hire the actor for free, but apparently that is an option. Otherwise, Equity actors use a different name and choose not to involve the union at all. If the show you saw identified the actors as Equity in the program, chances are they used one of the contracts I named above.
One thing I should note that hasn't been mentioned: once you are identified with Equity as a union producer or theater, you cannot choose to go non-union on some shows just because you want to save money. Broadway producers are union producers, so any production they do has to have a union contract. That means when a Broadway tour goes non-Eq, it is licensed to different non-union producers (and the Broadway producers continue to receive a small royalty). If a regional theater company is a union house, they use union contracts and pay all their performers union wages, even if the performer is not a member of the union.
This does not apply to the Guest Artist or Special Appearance contract, whose sole purpose is to allow non-union theaters to bring in Equity actors.
ETA: Wow, apparently I have a lot to say on this subject. I will try to keep my responses shorter from now on!
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Updated On: 5/3/13 at 10:13 AM
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
Jon
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/20/04
#58Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 10:15am
I think some folks object to tours being labeled "direct from Broadway" or "Broadway in Chicago" or whatever, and discovering that not one cast member has actually ever performed on Broadway.
"What's the point of having an Equity card?"
I've been an Equity member for 31 years. There are two reasons to have an Equity card:
1 - Health insurance. My equity insurance paid for over $50,000 in medical bills for me in the past year.
2 - Pension. I'm 53 years old. I'm a "vested" Equity member. So, even if I never work another day under an Equity contract, I'll get a pension at 65.
AEA AGMA SM
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/13/09
#59Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 10:16amTicket prices are set by the local presenter, but that is based off of what the producer is charging as the guarantee. If NETworks is setting a guarantee for Beauty and the Beast as they did for La Cage, then the presenters still need to price tickets at a comparable price for both shows if they hope to make any money off of bringing that production in. So the cost of tickets can still be very influenced by the producer, even though they are not setting the prices at each venue.
#60Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 10:21am
" There are two reasons to have an Equity card:
1 - Health insurance. My equity insurance paid for over $50,000 in medical bills for me in the past year.
2 - Pension. I'm 53 years old. I'm a "vested" Equity member. So, even if I never work another day under an Equity contract, I'll get a pension at 65."
You only get the health insurance, however, if you work a certain number of weeks in a year (I don't know the current number), which greatly exceeds the number of weeks most Equity actors work. Ditto pension - most members of Equity aren't vested, simply because there isn't enough Equity work in the world for them all.
John Adams
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/1/13
#61Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 10:37amReally informative discussion! ...and Yero my Hero, your post was long, but that only served for me to learn more.
SporkGoddess
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/27/05
#62Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 10:46am
It's interesting to think about this contrasted with opera. Opera performers don't have a union and it sounds like it's a major problem.
You can read about it here: http://auditioningforcollege.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/what-does-an-operatic-career-look-like/
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
broadway guy
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/5/11
#63Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 10:47amYeah this thread rocks. I am learning so much.
#64Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 6:27pm
Mactor, I meant no offense. (You'll find me defending non-Equity actors in Los Angeles above.) Of course you didn't lose your talent when you surrendered your Equity card.
But speaking in general (and given the work it takes to maintain special skills such as singing and dancing), I feel more confident with non-union productions of HAIR and HAIRSPRAY--even WEST SIDE STORY and A CHORUS LINE--than I do with shows such as GYPSY, DOLLY! and LA CAGE, where the primary characters are middle-aged or older.
Of course there may be good non-union, middle-aged performers out there. (Actually, I know there are, since I worked at The Fabulous Palm Springs Follies for several years and we had great performers older than 55 who came out of Vegas or Hollywood.)
But if I'm paying full price, I'd like to know Rose and Dolly and Mame will have the appropriate experience.
#65Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 6:43pm
Oh, I'm not offended - just offering a little insight as to some reasons someone may or may not be (or was and is no longer) an Equity member. And I'm middle-aged.
BWW member since 2007, username changed and post count re-set in 2013.
RippedMan
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/14/05
#66Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 6:45pm
With a lot of those tours though, the leads will give up their Equity cards. A friend did Cabaret a few years back and their Shultz was an Equity member who gave up his card for the tour. So, you never know!
Also, "Direct from Broadway" or "Broadway in Chicago" has NOTHING to do with the performers. A lot of the performers on tours have never played those roles on Broadway, etc. It just means the show/production are the same as the one that was on Broadway. People need to get educated!
AEA AGMA SM
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/13/09
#67Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 8:37pm
"It's interesting to think about this contrasted with opera. Opera performers don't have a union and it sounds like it's a major problem. "
They do (and it's mentioned, though not named, in the blog post you link to). Opera companies operate under an agreement with AGMA. AGMA does not have nearly the presence that Equity does, and in most companies has the members of the chorus as their primary focus in setting terms and conditions, which gives the chorus a lot of power in some of the major companies.
SporkGoddess
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/27/05
#68Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/3/13 at 10:52pm
Good to know, thanks. It sucks that singers have to pay for YAP auditions, though.
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
Updated On: 5/3/13 at 10:52 PM
#69Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/4/13 at 5:13amDo non-union actors have a better chance of getting into an off-Broadway production?
#70Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/4/13 at 6:44am
Union actors have a better chance of getting into union shows, whether on Broadway, off-Broadway or on tour.
Non-union shows are more likely to feature non-union actors, except where union actors are "scabbing" or have given up their Equity cards.
It's the same principle at all levels, except that I don't know if non-union shows are allowed in Broadway houses.
#71Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/4/13 at 8:48am
Generally, no. Broadway houses are union houses, which means the stagehands, electricians, and ushers are union members. Nearly always, that means the performers will be union, but I believe some of the special events are exceptions (I'm thinking of something like Slava's Snowshow). I'm not sure how that works. I guess because they were not American?
Most of the performers in COME FLY AWAY were in AGVA, a dancer's union, not AEA.
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
ghostlight2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/5/04
#72Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/4/13 at 9:04am
Also, for whatever reason, I don't believe Joan Jett ever had an Equity card for Rocky Horror. I don't know why an exception would have been made for her. In the end, I believe that turned out to be a mistake. She obviously didn't give a damn about her bad reputation.
#73Why are Non-Union tours so looked down upon ?
Posted: 5/4/13 at 9:05am
The other exception to Broadway being only union shows are the non profits (Roundabout, MTC, Lincoln Center) which operate under a LORT (League of Resident Theatres) contract. Every once in a while a non-Equity actor will appear in a very small role, usually no dialogue, just a body to fill the stage. The last time I really remember this is with Roundabout's Pygmalion a few years ago.
David walked into the valley
With a stone clutched in his hand
He was only a boy
But he knew someone must take a stand
There will always be a valley
Always mountains one must scale
There will always be perilous waters
Which someone must sail
-Into the Fire
Scarlet Pimpernel
ghostlight2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/5/04
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