What is the BEST of Sondheim? The worst? Favorite songs or characters? Tonight on Broadway and More!
What is the BEST of Sondheim? The worst? Favorite songs or characters? Tonight on Broadway and More!
#0What is the BEST of Sondheim? The worst? Favorite songs or characters? Tonight on Broadway and More!
Posted: 2/5/06 at 7:04pm
Hello all! For those of you NOT watching the Super Bowl, I want to personally invite you all to join us tonight on "Broadway and More" the Internet Radio Talk Show devoted to All Things Broadway, where tonight’s show is dedicated to All Things Sondheim!
What are your favorite Sondheim shows? What are your least favorite? Who are your favorite Sondheim roles? Least favorite? What Sondheim role would YOU play if you could? And what subject matter would you like to see Sondheim write a musical about in the future?
Call in and share your ideas with us and the audience.
PLUS: Sondheim Trivia! How well DO you know this genius of Broadway and his shows?
Or feel free to call in and chat about other Broadway news that you've heard or stories you want to share about your Broadway and Theater Experiences.
Also throughout tonight’s show, we’ll be challenging you with Broadway Trivia, Sondheim Trivia and "Broadway Name That Tune". Let's see how good you are!
The show airs Sunday night from 9-11 p.m. Eastern (6-8 p.m. Pacific)
You can tune in for FREE by going to www.BroadwayTalkRadio.com
If it's your first time tuning in, give your computer's music player a minute or two to get synched up with the radio show's player.
You can also call in TOLL FREE by dialing: 888-842-BWAY (2929)
We also have a LIVE CHATROOM during the show where we check in frequently live on the air, for those of you who are too shy to call in directly, or don't have access to a phone.
I hope you'll join us! We have a lot of fun on the show, but what makes the shows great is having YOU, the Broadway Fans, join us and give us your great opinions and input!
Henry Farnam
Host of Broadway and More
The Internet Radio Talk Show Devoted to All Things Broadway!
Broadway and More Radio Show Link
Danitriniqueen
Stand-by Joined: 12/7/03
#1re: What is the BEST of Sondheim? The worst? Favorite songs or characters? Tonight on Broadway and More!
Posted: 2/5/06 at 8:45pm
Cool! Henry,
I hope Everyone will join in the fun!.
QMAN03
Broadway Star Joined: 9/20/05
#2re: What is the BEST of Sondheim? The worst? Favorite songs or characters? Tonight on Broadway and More!
Posted: 2/5/06 at 8:54pm
Ok this is really off topic, but can you possibly bring up the question of when the current production of Sweeny will close?
P.S. I'll be listening.
Isabella2
Broadway Star Joined: 10/6/05
#3re: What is the BEST of Sondheim? The worst? Favorite songs or characters? Tonight on Broadway and More!
Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:23pmthanks for letting me know! i got to talk to them for 18 minutes! it was amazing! nerveracking but amazing.
Danitriniqueen
Stand-by Joined: 12/7/03
#4re: What is the BEST of Sondheim? The worst? Favorite songs or characters? Tonight on Broadway and More!
Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:43pmBella, u were GREAT!! Hope you come back next Sunday too.
#5re: What is the BEST of Sondheim? The worst? Favorite songs or characters? Tonight on Broadway and More!
Posted: 2/5/06 at 10:53pm
Were you the person talking about Passion by any chance? I didn't catch the name of the caller, but I thought that it might be you since you started the Italian Passion thread. Passion is one of my favorites, too.
And now I'm going to rant, because I was too afraid to call in and say it: I don't understand why so many people have a problem with Passion and the character of Fosca. It seemed to me that Giorgio fell in love with her, because he realized that her love was selfless. She was obsessed with him, but the fact that she maintained that obsession even after he rejected her proved that she loved him (even if it was a bit warped). And I don't attribute her behavior to some kind of inner ugliness. She knows that she's behaving strangely, but she doesn't know what else to do (she says, "No one has ever taught me how to love. I know I feel too much, Giorgio. I often don't know what to do with my feelings.") I also don't think that it's supposed to make perfect sense that Giorgio falls in love with her, because he says "Love within reason, that isn't love, and I've learned that from you." There is something about his sudden realization that he loves her that might not make sense, but that seemed intentional to me.
*takes deep breath*
I don't mean to criticize other people for their opinions, but I really don't understand and it frustrates me. 
Danitriniqueen
Stand-by Joined: 12/7/03
#6re: What is the BEST of Sondheim? The worst? Favorite songs or characters? Tonight on Broadway and More!
Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:02pmJenny, you should call in/. And it was her that talked bout Passion.. :)
#7re: What is the BEST of Sondheim? The worst? Favorite songs or characters? Tonight on Broadway and More!
Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:07pm
I love Passion as well. And I find Fosca to be an absolutely fascinating character. In a more conventional show, the "ugly woman", would be the one with the purer, gentler soul. The protagonist learns to see the beauty within.
But Passion is by no means conventional. Fosca is a force of nature. Fierce, passionate beyond words, monstrous in her pursuit of Georgio. She's obsessive, pushy, annoying, strong of will... I don't think there'a any way to justify or explain why Georgio falls in love with her. Like you said, it's not something we're meant to understand.
But I think there's a correlation between Georgio and the audience. We at first really don't know what to make of Fosca. She comes on too strong. She turns us off. We find her monstrous, not because of her physical appearance, but because of her character. And yet somehow, I don't know exactly when, she manages to find her way into our hearts. I found myself falling in love with this character I had despised when the show started. I don't want to generalize everyone's experience with this show, and I certainly respect other people's opinions. But that's the way it was for me. So when Georgio falls in love with her, even if there's no logic to it, it made perfect sense to me.
I understand why many people dislike Passion, but I wish they wouldn't express their hatred it with such, er, passion. Some of us,many of us, DO enjoy this musical.
#8We WANT you to call in - even if you DO disagree! That makes it GREAT!
Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:28pm
Hi Jenny,
I really wish you HAD called in - I love it when we can get a great discussion going about these characters. Everyone has such great opinions and I find it really interesting when people don't always all agree with each other. Never be too nervous to call in - and if you don't agree with something, even better. That makes our show even more balanced!
Your defense of Fosca was very eloquently written. It made me want to take another look. And maybe my opinion was a little bit biased because I had a "Fosca" in my life once who really crossed the line into obsession. And it didn't make me fall in love, it scared me and made me want to get a restraining order.
But anyway, thank you SO much for your opinion and I really would LOVE to have you call in next week and share that view with us about Passion and Fosca. It's our opinions that make us all unique and makes this world interesting. Some opinions we agree with, and others we find completely absurd. But it sure makes it fun to try to sway each other in our direction when it comes to these great opinions!
Thanks again for listening. And please do call in! You're always welcome on the show!
Oh, and GREAT job to Izabella - thanks for being on the show - you brought a lot to it!
Henry Farnam
Host of Broadway and More
The Internet Radio Talk Show about All Things Broadway
Broadway and More Radio Show Link
Isabella2
Broadway Star Joined: 10/6/05
#9re: What is the BEST of Sondheim? The worst? Favorite songs or characters? Tonight on Broadway and More!
Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:29pmyep that was me. i wish i could have had all that to say to him because i couldn't think of that at the time. i completely agree, and i love fosca's character till death... literally. haha
Isabella2
Broadway Star Joined: 10/6/05
#10re: What is the BEST of Sondheim? The worst? Favorite songs or characters? Tonight on Broadway and More!
Posted: 2/5/06 at 11:31pmno problem, it was a great pleasure to talk to you!
FoscasBohemianDream
Broadway Star Joined: 1/20/06
#11re: What is the BEST of Sondheim? The worst? Favorite songs or characters?
Posted: 2/6/06 at 1:42amWhen I went to see Passion, I remember some people laughing at Fosca which was so disturbing. I think Fosca is one of Sondheim's most complex and fascinating characters, she is passionate, extremely intelligent, unique, and somehow beautiful in her ugliness. As played by Ms.Murphy, Fosca was stripped of all inhibitions, she truly believed in passion. It's not an easy character to understand and that's why people don't like her. She is not your typica heroine, she is manipulative, determined, she defies gender expectations. Fosca is my favorite character in a musical.
#12the Fosca discussion
Posted: 2/6/06 at 3:36am
I never laughed at her. I saw the depth of her character, especially as played by the BRILLIANT Donna Murphy. But you brought up a really good point as to what my problem eventually became with her - the manipulation. I just don't think love should be manipulated. I never laughed at her or even hated her. And I understood why he eventually left Clara. And believe me, the show HAD me in the palm of it's hand until the last 20 minutes when I went "hey, wait a minute - something was left out here - how did he go from feeling one way about her to all of a sudden feeling this intensely passionate love for her?". I've been manipulated before by a person like Fosca - and it didn't make me fall in love, it made me feel manipulated, hurt and angry.
And I'm not even bad mouthing Fosca or the show Passion. I'm simply saying that I wanted another 20 minutes added in to take him from despising her to passionately loving her. Why DID the manipulations work? What changed and why? It's been years since I saw it (I saw opening week on Broadway), so my recollections might be mudied. But I just remember walking out of the theater feeling disappointed - not in the music, not in the performances, not in 3/4 of the show - but in that one instant of finding real love in someone who has done nothing but manipulate based on her obsession; a person who doesn't seem to care how her manipulations affect other people. Is that what a truly passionate love is? Manipulating someone to fall in love with you by obsessing about them? I just remember WANTING to like Fosca. I really really did. I kept looking for what was inside of her and not seeing what she looked like. And like I said, it's been a long long time, but I just remember after a couple of hours of REALLY wanting and TRYING to like her, that I just didn't. She wasn't someone I'd want to know in real life. And I guess that made it hard for me to understand why, in a split second, he instantly loves her.
But don't get me wrong - I think it's an incredible role, performed to perfection by Donna Murphy with a score that was absolutely beautiful. I agree that it was wrong for the audience to laugh at her or just hate her because she was so ugly. But I just wished that extra 20 minutes was put in so that I could see him changing his mind and seeing through to some real feelings for her, and have it based on something more than manipulations. Trust me - I WANTED them to find love. I WANTED him to see past the exterior and see to the beauty of her flawed but loving interior. But no matter how much I wanted that to be my experience, I still walked out of the theater thinking to myself "Really? He REALLY fell in love with her? What did I miss?".
But as I said on the show tonight - Sondheim stories and characters are SO rich that you find all KINDS of subtext in them. Perhaps I never gave it enough of a chance to go back and find out more about Fosca. But please don't get upset with me that I was turned off enough by her in one viewing to not really care about finding out more of what was underneath.
It's like when you're at a really great wedding and there's that one friend of the bride who is absolutely miserable and jealous of the bride, angry and very self centered (there's one at every wedding), and who wants to make it all about her. Even though there's probably a lot under the surface and maybe a really deep and wonderful person under all of that, are you really compelled to go digging in under that surface when you've just plain not enjoyed any of the time that you've had with the girl? Maybe not, unless of course she shows you something beyond the manipulation and you see some sense of humor, or sensitivity to others, or humanity of some kind coming through in her personality. But if not, you don't hate this girl - you just would rather steer clear of her since she brings everyone down when she's around. So for me, Fosca was sort of like that girl at the wedding. Interesting character? Yes. Someone I'd want to know? No. Someone I'd see myself all of sudden being head over heels in love with after so much manipulation and obsession. No, definitely not. But that could all be changed for me with one kind act, one selfless gesture, a sense of humor. Anything redeeming.
And perhaps I just missed it. It's hard to imagine that I would since I'm the guy who loves seeing way below the exterior and delve deeply into characters. And perhaps I chose to not see it because I was simply turned off by her manipulative behavior. And in years since, having been on the receiving end of obsession and manipulation, it's probably soured me even more on the Fosca character because the whole thing makes my blood run cold. Trust me, experience something like that in real life, and you'll see what I mean. Manipulation does not endear you to someone, it makes you scary and creepy.
BUT, I'm willing to also take a look at the other side. I'm open to accepting that maybe I did miss something. But until the manipulation is erased, I'll still have a hard time. Manipulation is not love, it's actually a very controlling and hateful act. Hateful internally to the person doing it and hateful to the person who is being manipulated. Love is giving over of yourself to care for another in a way that is unselfish and nuturing and protective and caring. Love is a very selfless thing. It's not about "what are you going to become for me and MY happiness", it's "what can I do to help you fulfill who you are for your own happiness".
Show me where Fosca does that - and trust me - you'll have a convert over to the Fosca team.
Like I said, I didn't hate Passion or the characters, I just felt there was 20 minutes missing - like the producers cut off an important 20 minutes of the story and just left it up to the audience to fill in the gaps on their own.
But I'm always willing to change my mind or take another look. That's why I host a talk show. There's nothing better than hearing other people's opinions on things and hearing their take on it and maybe learning something new or finding a new perspective.
FlaBroadway
Chorus Member Joined: 6/16/05
#13the Fosca discussion
Posted: 2/6/06 at 6:30amHenry - will a replay of this show be posted on your site? I was working and couldn't tune in. Would love to hear the discussion.
#14the Fosca discussion
Posted: 2/6/06 at 7:38am
I was wondering the same thing. I'm in a different time zone but would still love to hear the show!
Thank you for that detailed answer. It's so wonderful to debate about this one-of-a-kind show with intelligent people. I love it so much, but at times I can't really articulate why - reading other people's responses is absolutely great.
"Years from now, when you talk about this - And you will - Be kind. "
Danitriniqueen
Stand-by Joined: 12/7/03
gettinhep
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/9/04
#16the Fosca discussion
Posted: 2/6/06 at 5:10pm
I always wonder about that 'missing 20 minutes.' On the surface, it appears far too convenient that Georgio would have such a change of heart. Is it really so sudden, though? The audience brings its own prejudices to the table. We have a fascination with physical beauty. Perhaps we are the problem. We cannot believe that deeper feelings can be generated for a physically unattractive person. Fosca adds to this disbelief with her socially unacceptable behaviour. The show gives us such a contrast between the two relationships. In earlier scenes, Georgio is able to discuss fairly intimate matters with Fosca. Their conversations run deeper than the scenes of lovemaking between Giorgio and Clara, whose relationship appears to fill a physical need rather than anything deeper. Fosca initially asks for friendship; her loneliness brings a need for intellectual and spiritual fulfillment. The conversations she initiates with Giorgio have probably started a tiny crack.
This crack opens a little wider with 'Loving You.' While Giorgio remains appalled by Fosca's obsessive behaviour, he is given the reason - she loves him by compulsion. This parallels the earlier 'hopelessly in love' of his letter explaining his relationship with Clara. However, Fosca gives Giorgio a clear message - she would die for him. Clara would not. When Giorgio desperately wishes to run away with Clara, she backs off.
It is the close proximity between the end of Giorgio's relationship with Clara and his apparent love for Fosca that still causes problems. Perhaps it is only seen to be valid after you have seen the show several times. The score is written in such a way as to allow themes to seep into the consciousness of the audience. Fosca has seeped under Giorgio's guard. She has given the reason for their possible closeness with, 'they hear drums, we hear music.' This intellectual and spiritual similarity needs time to mature. Perhaps it is only with repeated visits to this show can we put aside our prejudices and accept that love is not always convenient or obvious.
'Try not to have a good time...this is supposed to be educational.' - Lucy Van Pelt
#17the Fosca discussion
Posted: 2/6/06 at 5:38pm
Thanks. I don't think I would have been able to think of all that (or say it so "eloquently") if I had called in, though! And I love reading everyone's responses to this thread.
I don't necessarily expect anyone to change anyone's mind, but I will defend Fosca a bit more. In the end, I feel that she does let go of her selfishness and manipulation. When Giorgio tells Fosca that his relationship with Clara is over, this is the conversation they have:
Giorgio: It's over. Finished.
Fosca: I'm so sorry.
Giorgio: Sorry? I thought you'd be happy.
Fosca: There was a time when I'd welcomed that. But I realize now I don't want you to be unhappy. I don't wish to see you sad.
Instead of being opportunistic, Fosca expresses her sympathy for Giorgo. Then again, Giorgio's already decided that he's in love with her at this point, so I'm not entirely sure how to explain that. But as a few of us mentioned before, I don't think it's supposed to make perfect sense. I do feel, however, that it lets us see something redeeming about Fosca's inner self, which is part of what you wanted to see.
Even if it's after Giorgio falls in love with her, it seems as though Fosca realizes that the behavior you take issue with was inappropriate. Another example of this is when Giorgio is reading the letter Fosca left for him, and they sing:
All that pain I nursed inside
For all those years -
All that vain and bitter self-concern -
All those tears and all that pride
Have vanished into air ...
I don't want to leave
Now that I am loved.
I think that part of what made Fosca behave the way she did (and part of why I still sympathized with her), was that her actions were due in part to no one truly loving her. When Giorgio professes his love, even her own cousin can't understand why someone would love her. Despite her actions, it was heartbreaking to think that her relative had even reached the point where he believed that she was unlovable. To me, Fosca's circumstances were far worse than those of a bitter wedding guest. She's been rejected by pretty much everyone. I didn't really detest her behavior as you did; nevertheless, just as Giorgio comes to the realization that he only "thought [he] knew what love was," I think Fosca realizes that some of her actions during the show were not truly acts of love (although she thought they were at the time).
Updated On: 2/6/06 at 05:38 PM
#18the Fosca discussion
Posted: 2/6/06 at 5:59pm
I actually agree with you 100%. But my issue isn't that Fosca finally changes, I'm glad she does. But I almost wish he found his great passionate love for her AFTER she backs away from the manipulation. And the discussions that they have about love in the beginning - although wonderful and definitely the kinds of discussions that make you feel affectionate towards someone and a kinship with them - I don't think just feeling the same way about love necessarily makes someone fall in love with you. I've had these conversations with both people I was interested in and people who were interested in me. And unless that spark and chemistry was there, the conversations never made me wake up one morning and think "wow, I'm now in love with this person". Except in cases where the person was SO wonderful over a period of time that I couldn't stop thinking about them and wanted them around all the time.
I love all that you guys are saying and it's really opening my eyes more about Fosca - to the point where I do want to go back and give "her" a chance. But I still feel the loss of that 20 minutes. I want to see his eyes opening to love.
But perhaps the damaged person in all of this really ISN'T Fosca at all. Maybe it's Giorgio. He did, after all, carry on a long term affair with a married woman. There must have been a certain amount of self-loathing to allow himself to be involved in a situation like that. Did he not think that he deserved better? Or was Clara so perfect that he couldn't resist her? Obviously not in the end, she wasn't. She was flawed and he saw that. Maybe what's working here is that Giorgio can't be alone. Maybe he has a deep NEED to not only be loved, but to be adored and put on a pedestal.
Maybe I'm just giving Giorgio WAY too much credit here. Maybe ultimately it wouldn't matter who it was as long as they adored him and he felt involved in a relationship. If Giorgio is weak in that way, then perhaps the "they hear drums, we hear music" argument would work on him in the end once he's out on his own and alone without a relationship.
I do want to mention something. You guys don't know me, but I'm not someone who bases my opinions on people based on looks. I'm sure a lot of Passion detractors couldn't get past her ugly looks. For me, it wasn't her looks or the unibrow. It was the manipulation. I hate manipulators and it's just hard for me to put that aside to find the redeeming qualities. Nothing good in my life has ever come from being around a manipulator. And so perhaps I'm putting MYSELF in Giorgio's position and saying "there's no way I'd do that without that extra 20 minutes where she moves past the manipulations".
And I guess we ALL put ourselves into the characters we watch in one way or another. I mean, who hasn't sympathized with Elphaba because you remember a time when you felt out of place? Who hasn't felt the pain of Colehouse Walker when Sarah dies because you've lost someone very special yourself?
Well, I guess I can now really say that it's not Fosca that bothers me so much about Passion. It's Giorgio. Maybe he's REALLY the one who is seriously flawed.
Isabella2
Broadway Star Joined: 10/6/05
#19the Fosca discussion
Posted: 2/6/06 at 8:10pm
wow, really great points made. I agree with what you're all saying about how Fosca does change after Giorgio discovers his love for her (notice how i say AFTER) The missing element is giorgio's reasoning for his love. i agree more that there is a missing 20 minutes as well. Besides, what's wrong with an extended Passion? We really need to get somdheim on this board. Ha.
Then again, i think Sondheim, or Lapine, (because he wrote the book right?) wanted to shock the audience with a sudden change of heart. It's one of those, "hey i didn't see that coming" things. And it's amazing the way it is, but i distincly remember watching it for the first time of dvd. And after a good 15 minutes of hysterical crying i thought:
"Wait a minute, did i miss something??"
Isabella2
Broadway Star Joined: 10/6/05
#20the Fosca discussion
Posted: 2/6/06 at 8:13pmoh by the way, i just checked the archive section but it wasn't there... is it going to be there soon?
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