Is religion deserving of respect?
Is religion deserving of respect?
#1Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/20/24 at 5:12pm
Or is it deserving of scorn?
Most, if not all, organized religions are deeply problematic. Misogynist, homophobic etc. They do more harm than good. Cults.
Individualist belief systems and personal spirituality is fine, I can accept that… but why are religions as organizations protected by law? Tax havens.
Is there even one good one?
Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$
#2Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/21/24 at 11:40am
I sometimes find myself walking a bit of a tightrope on this. On the one hand, I really puzzle over why seemingly intelligent adults choose to spend time attempting to talk to ghosts in the sky*. If I dwell on this too much, my brain urges me to conclude that they must be suffering from some kind of mental illness.
But... so many people have these kinds of beliefs, people whom I otherwise respect very much, and intellectual humility forces me to wonder if I might be the one who's missing something. "More things in heaven and earth" and all that. I have never really doubted that I'm right and they're wrong, but I feel like I need to be open to doubting it, if that makes any sense.
*These are the words I use in my head. I don't express such scorn out loud (at least I haven't for many years). I felt the nature of this question gave me leave to let it out.
#3Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/21/24 at 2:57pm
I understand completely!
I honestly do not judge anyone for having faith, I really don’t. I almost wish I had it myself. It would be so lovely to think that one day I will be reunited with lost loved ones, and we will be together forevermore in eternal bliss.
Alas. I just don’t have it in me.
I find it so bizarre to see strong modern women cover their hair out of “respect" for a fairytale deity, or the President of the United States walk around with ash on his forehead one day every year.
Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$
#4Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/21/24 at 3:03pm
P.S. Hey kdogg, I remember you saying that back in 1992 you were outraged at the the SNL pope-ripping. You must have had faith at some stage in your life. Are you sorry or glad to have lost it?
You’ve probably heard about the current pope's recent use of homophobic slurs. Sad.
”Fight the real enemy"
Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$
#5Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/21/24 at 4:19pm
Jay Lerner-Z said: "P.S. Hey kdogg, I remember you saying that back in 1992 you were outraged at the the SNL pope-ripping. You must have had faith at some stage in yourlife. Are you sorry or glad to have lost it?"
That's a great question. My Catholicism was on its very last legs already when that happened, but I had a strong cultural attachment to my family background and a sense of protectiveness for the people and things that family members cherished, like the pope. (And they were/are wonderful people, of the type I referred to in my previous post.)
Anyhow, I don't feel like there was a big break in terms of "losing my religion." Those cultural attachments were strong and I suppose I would have said at the time I believed in the basics of the Catholic faith, but the truth is I was always kind of a secular intellectual type in high school and college, and the faith was always pretty shaky.
ETA: To answer the actual question, I don't have any regrets about losing what faith I had. It accompanied my self-recognition as a gay man and someone with a culturally liberal orientation and all that good stuff. I'm a geek and I feel like the theory of evolution, our modern understanding of cosmology, the Mass in B Minor (ironic, I know), all satisfy any need I have for a sense of transcendence.
dadaguza
Stand-by Joined: 7/16/19
#6Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/22/24 at 7:38pm
YES it is.
If you believe you deserve respect for your lifestyle and beliefs, you should give respect too.
"I find it so bizarre to see strong modern women cover their hair out of “respect" for a fairytale deity, or the President of the United States walk around with ash on his forehead one day every year."
"I really puzzle over why seemingly intelligent adults choose to spend time attempting to talk to ghosts in the sky*. If I dwell on this too much, my brain urges me to conclude that they must be suffering from some kind of mental illness."
^Those comments alone are offensive and disrespectful. Do those practices affect your life? Not getting it doesn't mean you have a right to be insulting.
How do you feel when people say the same about transgender people? - they have a mental illness or live in a fairytale.
Exactly.
#7Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/23/24 at 11:54am
dadaguza, I can't speak for Jay, but I don't go around actively disrespecting religious people, either in my words or actions. As I said, the nature of this thread just seemed like an invitation to candidly express some of my more critical, (usually) interior thoughts about religion. As I also said, it's strongly tempered by an opposing sense of humility that also guides my thinking on the subject.
Zeppie2022
Broadway Star Joined: 7/12/22
#8Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/23/24 at 4:05pm
You are trying to paint too broad a brush with this topic. I was born and raised a Catholic and still go to Mass with my wife every week. Yes, the sexual abuse by priests were beyond horrible. The Vatican covering it up for so many years may have even been worse. That being said, the Catholic Church and priests/nuns have done a lot of good in the world. I am one of many that have had a Catholic school education in my life and it was excellent. Many others over decades have also received that same degree of education as myself. Catholic charities have done wonderful things for people in need all across the world for a long time. Most priests in a parish go and visit and give sacraments to the sick and the elderly. Some will be involved with young people and be coaches in things like CYO basketball. You have to remember that organized religion is made up of human beings who have faults just like you and I. There is no such thing as a perfect religion. I happen to believe in a higher spirit than myself, that is a personal choice. Finally, I am fine with any religion people want to join, just don't preach to me. I also don't care if people don't believe in God, that is their choice and who the heck am I to question it.
Updated On: 6/23/24 at 04:05 PM#9Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/24/24 at 12:42pm
Personal faith is of course deserving of respect, even if it is beyond my own comprehension. As long as it doesn’t effect me as an individual, that is.
Marriage equality, for example. I am unable to be married in a Catholic Church. The sacrament is denied me. Fine, I’m out… goodbye… but what problem have they with the LEGAL status of my (potential) marriage? Why campaign against me? Leave me alone, and I’ll leave you alone.
I am a man, however, so I guess I have it easy as far as the Catholic Church goes. It utterly boggles my mind why Mrs. Zeppie and all other female congregants enable such a misogynist organization. They are treated as second class citizens. No women priests, bishops, etc. A female Pope? Probably not in my lifetime.
Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$
#10Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/24/24 at 12:51pm
Kdogg, I get the cultural attachment. I think that’s what it all boils down to, really. What people are born into - nurture over nature.
Do mass-goers REALLY believe in "transubstantiation", for example? I doubt it. This seems to be the whole difference between Catholic and Protestant. That and the whole matter if Mary was a virgin or not. Kinda ridiculous, really.
Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$
Zeppie2022
Broadway Star Joined: 7/12/22
#11Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/24/24 at 7:56pm
"It utterly boggles my mind why Mrs. Zeppie and all other female congregants enable such a misogynist organization. They are treated as second class citizens. No women priests, bishops, etc. A female Pope? Probably not in my lifetime."
Before I answer your question after asking my wife about it, let me say a couple of things. There are usually 2-3 readings from the Bible during Mass at our church, fairly often it is done by a woman. Our church is pretty large so when it is time for Holy Communion, there are 5-6 people helping priest giving it out which includes a couple of women. The church choir is headed up by a woman who sings/conducts the choir and selects the music they sing at Mass. There are at least 2 alter girls in the Church that help the priest say Mass.
Now for your question. My wife said she goes to Mass to pray and receive the Sacrament of Holy Communion. Would she get more out of Mass if there was a female priest, the answer is no. At times, she will receive Holy Communion from a woman, is it more meaningful to her. The answer to that question is also no. My wife said organized religion is not perfect, it is made up of ordinary people who make mistakes. To her, there is a difference between prayer, believing in God and the running of organized religion. Finally, she does not understand why a woman in this day and age is not allowed to be a priest but she is not going to obsess about it.
#12Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/24/24 at 8:27pm
Thanks to your wife for sharing her thoughts.
Imagine if the roles were reversed - only WOMEN as priests, bishops, popes. Every decision made by women. Every interpretation of scripture and theology by women. Only women allowed to deliver sacraments, only women allowed to turn wine into the blood of Christ, bread into His body.
Could men accept this? I doubt it.
Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$
dadaguza
Stand-by Joined: 7/16/19
#13Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/26/24 at 12:35pm
Jay Lerner-Z said: "That and the whole matter if Mary was a virgin or not. Kinda ridiculous, really."
Yes. That's almost as ridiculous as believing, in this modern day and age, that males can breast feed.
#14Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/26/24 at 5:25pm
dadaguza said: "Yes.That's almost as ridiculous as believing, in this modern day and age, that males can breast feed."
Is this an example of the mutual respect that you claimed to cherish? You're just a right-wing troll and I regret having bothered to give you a serious answer before.
dadaguza
Stand-by Joined: 7/16/19
#15Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/26/24 at 6:59pm
kdogg36 said: "dadaguza said: "Yes.That's almost as ridiculous as believing, in this modern day and age, that males can breast feed."
Is this an example of the mutual respect that you claimed to cherish? You're just a right-wing troll and I regret having bothered to give you a serious answer before."
Yes, it is. Why is OK for you and Jay Lerner to spout derogatory things about religion and religious beliefs, calling them ridiculous, but that comment I made triggers you and now I'm a troll?
#16Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/26/24 at 7:50pm
dadaguza said: "Yes, it is. Why is OK for you and Jay Lerner to spout derogatory things about religion and religious beliefs, calling them ridiculous,but that comment I made triggers you and now I'm a troll?"
I know I'm going to regret throwing good time after bad, but here are three responses:
(1) This thread is a very specific corner of a corner of the internet where criticism of religious belief was explicitly solicited, so I felt I could say what's on my mind about the topic (and I'll point out again that I emphasized my own intellectual limitations). You, on the other hand, choose to post on a thread that you knew wasn't really intended for you (okay, free country), about something that had nothing to do with the original topic.
(2) Religion is entirely a chosen, changeable property of an individual (as a former Catholic I know this as intimately as anyone could possibly know anything), and therefore a legitimate basis for judgment. Gender identity is not.
(3) If you really believed in the principle of "reciprocal respect" that you previously espoused, you'd behave according to that principle regardless of what I choose to do. Me, I believe in "judge and prepare to be judged." And I sure am judging you right now.
#17Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/26/24 at 7:54pm
Who believes that males can breastfeed?
I’m not sure I even get your point. Trans women are fully aware that they are trans, and not cis.
Trans men can breastfeed.
Anyway, I genuinely don’t mean to be insulting. I don’t understand why some conservatives can believe in a man rising from the dead but not the existence of trans people. You can’t just pick and choose when to apply scientific rationale and when not to.
Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$
dadaguza
Stand-by Joined: 7/16/19
#18Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/26/24 at 10:32pm
kdogg36 said: "dadaguza said: "Yes, it is. Why is OK for you and Jay Lerner to spout derogatory things about religion and religious beliefs, calling them ridiculous,but that comment I made triggers you and now I'm a troll?"
I know I'm going to regret throwing good time after bad, but here are three responses:
(1) This thread is a very specific corner of a corner of the internet where criticism of religious belief was explicitly solicited, so I felt I could say what's on my mind about the topic (and I'll point out again thatIemphasized my own intellectual limitations). You, on the other hand, choose to post on a thread that you knew wasn't really intended for you (okay, free country), about something that had nothing to do with the original topic.
Why is this thread not "intended for me"? Was I supposed to engage in the mockery of religious people instead of calling certain posters out? I don't post as much as others but I frequent these boards alot, including this off topic one. And there are multiple threads in here knocking, criticizing, or people just saying they "don't get why" certain traditional lifestyles or practices have not yet been abolished. (ie. the heterosexual weddings thread) Some subject lines are almost blatant rage bait.
Comments you guys made in this thread, like people who pray must have a mental illness, or live in a fantasy land, are exact comments people have made about the transgender community, that's why I thought of it and used it as an example when I said respect should be reciprocated. Why is it understandable for one group of people to be offended by those comments, but another should just tolerate it? You were callously making comments as if no one reading them would or should get offended, but my male breast feeding comment was so out of line and offensive and triggering that it means I'm a troll. It just feels hypocritical to me, that's why I engaged in this thread. And although I do believe in a God I'm not even super religious!
"(2) Religion is entirely a chosen, changeableproperty of an individual (as a former Catholic I know this as intimately as anyone could possibly know anything), and therefore a legitimate basis for judgment. Gender identity is not."
And there are people who believe that is the result of a mental illness. Just like you believe praying is due to a mental illness. Why is it OK to say that about one individual but not another, whether it's the result of a changeable property or not?
"(3) If you really believed in the principle of "reciprocal respect" that you previously espoused, you'd behave according to that principle regardless of what I choose to do. Me, I believe in "judge and prepare to be judged." And I sure am judging you right now."
That's cool :) You are just an anonymous person on a message board.
dadaguza
Stand-by Joined: 7/16/19
#19Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/26/24 at 10:35pm
Jay Lerner-Z said: "Who believes that males can breastfeed?
I’m not sure I even get your point. Trans women are fully aware that they are trans, and not cis.
Trans men can breastfeed."
No, I apologize if I wasn't clear.. there are people who actually believe trans women can breast feed.
#20Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 6/28/24 at 2:52am
I believe religion deserves tolerance, not respect. You cannot demand or expect that others respect your beliefs if they have good reason to believe these beliefs are at best false or at worst harmful. However, in free societies we must tolerate others' beliefs or it doesn't work. Unfortunately, the problem we face is it's not a two-way street and many religious individuals, theology, governments etc. across the world will not tolerate beliefs of other religions or non-religious beliefs, or certain behaviours others (e.g. homosexuality). When we face such intolerance we must no longer tolerate this intolerance and be strong. We cannot tolerate intolerance.
"You can't overrate Bernadette Peters. She is such a genius. There's a moment in "Too Many Mornings" and Bernadette doing 'I wore green the last time' - It's a voice that is just already given up - it is so sorrowful. Tragic. You can see from that moment the show is going to be headed into such dark territory and it hinges on this tiny throwaway moment of the voice." - Ben Brantley (2022)
"Bernadette's whole, stunning performance [as Rose in Gypsy] galvanized the actors capable of letting loose with her. Bernadette's Rose did take its rightful place, but too late, and unseen by too many who should have seen it" Arthur Laurents (2009)
"Sondheim's own favorite star performances? [Bernadette] Peters in ''Sunday in the Park,'' Lansbury in ''Sweeney Todd'' and ''obviously, Ethel was thrilling in 'Gypsy.'' Nytimes, 2000
#21Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 7/2/24 at 12:55pm
I'm not sure it even deserves tolerance, actually. Perhaps for grown adults doing their own thing - but foisting it upon their children too? It really is brainwashing to a dangerous degree. We frown upon cults, I don't see how organized religion is any different. Today I saw a parent on public transport, with their two little kids. A girl and a boy. The girl was heavily covered, only her face showing. The boy was in a sleeveless t-shirt and shorts. The girl was sitting quietly by her father, the boy was running around wildly. Am I considered Islamophobic for questioning this?
Also, for the record, this thread was not meant as "rage bait". Just puzzled pondering, no more. What got me thinking about it was the recent visit to the Vatican by various comedians. Their subsequent rhapsodizing of it I found very odd. I can't fathom why they even went - just because Pope Francis clicked his fingers and demanded their presence does not mean they needed to cross the Atlantic just to please him. If it was me, I would tell him to fck off and get back to me when women are treated as equals and being gay is no longer a sin.
Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$
#22Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 7/2/24 at 1:04pm
Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$
#23Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 7/2/24 at 5:18pm
Jay Lerner-Z said: "Today I saw a parent on public transport, with their two little kids. A girl and a boy. The girl was heavily covered, only her face showing. The boy was in a sleeveless t-shirt and shorts. The girl was sitting quietly by her father, the boy was running around wildly. Am I considered Islamophobic for questioning this?"
Unfortunately, I think many people would say that. In my experience you can also get in trouble for criticizing the practice of cutting off parts of an infant's genitalia for religious reasons, despite the patent absurdity of it.
#24Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 7/2/24 at 7:42pm
That too.
I can NOT respect that… although I suppose it’s still less damaging than years of brainwashing inculcation.
Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$
#25Is religion deserving of respect?
Posted: 7/13/24 at 6:37pm
Non sibi sed patriae
Updated On: 7/14/24 at 06:37 PM
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