Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
JasonM12480
Broadway Star Joined: 3/17/05
#1Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/18/07 at 10:35pm
This topic came up tonight with me and another person, and I was curious to know everyone's thought.
I was performing this evening, and said I wasn't feeling my best, and that my throat was very dry and scratchy. And my friend says (bad analogy) "Well, why do you think it's so much more exciting to hear Idina Menzel sing than Stephanie Block? Idina was always on the edge, never knowing if she was gonna make it, working really hard and singing her ass off, while Stephanie is always vocally healthy, very trained and safe."
So, excluding the "Wicked" analogy, which do we think is better and do you like to hear? Someone with a husky, raspy voice who is always belting their guts out, or someone with a well-trained, well-taken care of voice and a healthy sound? I know which I prefer. AND, does singing so hard you lose your voice equal "working harder" than someone who really takes care of their instrument?
neddyfrank2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/23/05
#2re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/18/07 at 10:38pmI would rather grind a voice to shred any day. I mean, who doesn't love watching somebody's career come to an end because of bad singing techniques?
JBSinger
Broadway Star Joined: 11/12/04
#2re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 8:54am
I think it has more to do with the character of someone's voice. Some voices are just "clean" - like Lauren Kennedy's or Sutton Foster's. I kind of find them boring because they are a little too clean and non distinct.
Then you get someone like Carolee Carmello or Audra McDonald who can do wonders vocally, sound like they are "on the edge" and yet, I feel, have some solid technique behind them. Sally Mayes is another belter who never sounds like she's holding back, but I don't fear for her health. LaLuPone re-learned to sing and it never looks like she's holding back (but it's healthier now than her Evita days).
It really just depends on the voice to me.
philcrosby
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/17/04
#3re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 10:04am
I have two words for you: Liza Minnelli. That is what a lifetime of reckless unsupported singing will get you. And continuing it AFTER you have had to had vocal surgery to boot!
Unlike Mr. Rudetsky, I find all that high belting very unpleasant to listen to. And quite frankly, I don't find Ms. Menzel's voice all that remarkable.
Give me Audra McDonald or Barbara Cook -- still singing in her SAME KEYS -- any day.
Updated On: 12/19/07 at 10:04 AM
burntplains
Featured Actor Joined: 1/24/07
#4re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 11:23amactually carolee has never had any vocal training... as of last year anyway. As long as you can keep your voice healthy do whatever you want..
#5re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 12:06pmi find it incredible that Audra has the voice she has, quite frankly. i adore her and feel sort of sadistic to want to hear her one day hit a wrong note SOMEWHERE. it just doesn't seem in her.
#6re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 1:22pm
We've been discussing this on the "Laura Bell Bundy and the note" thread. It's almost like schadenfreude, people seem to want to see actors gut their voices reaching for these notes in a modern score.
It's sadistic, although, considering some of the comments that I've seen here, not that much of a surprise.
http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=972787#3631451
http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=963561#3533883
http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=955158#3440952
http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=954269#3427915
http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=955012#3441622
http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=954344#3428699
philcrosby
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/17/04
#7re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 2:22pm
It is nothing but recklessness, and it's cheered on by audiences who think "American Idol" is the benchmark. It's one thing to pull out all the vocal stops once for three minutes during a TV show and quite another to replicate that eight times a week on Broadway.
robbiej
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#8re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 2:33pmIf it ain't bleedin', it ain't singin'.
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
roquat
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/25/05
#9re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 2:51pm
I just can't enjoy that screechy, pushy, grindy sound that seems to be the hallmark these days. My music director's soul just recoils--it's why I can't listen to the soundtrack of RENT.
Some riffs are fine (and it's possible to do them in a healthy way), but when a song is ALL riffs, it becomes monotonous to me.
However, I must say I love to hear a scratchy, gin-soaked voice on an elderly singer--where you know it didn't come from screeching, but from life and experience.
I ask in all honesty/What would life be?/Without a song and a dance, what are we?/So I say "Thank you for the music/For giving it to me."
Jonny boy
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/30/07
#10re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 2:51pmI like a husky belt! A clear voice bores me! I find it powerfull when they really have to go for it!
roquat
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/25/05
#11re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 2:59pm
Not me. I just hear those chords grinding and think to myself, "how many more years do they have of doing this until they can't even speak."
And I'm NOT an Idina fan, for that reason. When I saw the RENT movie, it looked to me like she was crossing her hands over her throat to prevent her larynx from falling out...
I ask in all honesty/What would life be?/Without a song and a dance, what are we?/So I say "Thank you for the music/For giving it to me."
Jonny boy
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/30/07
#12re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 3:03pmIdina's voice rakes on my nerves too a bit! Her voice is too shrill for my taste.I like a bit more depth behind the voice She sounds like she is screaming=-)
Jonny boy
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/30/07
#13re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 3:03pmIdina's voice rakes on my nerves too a bit! Her voice is too shrill for my taste.I like a bit more depth behind the voice She sounds like she is screaming=-)
philcrosby
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/17/04
#14re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 3:10pm
There's a huge difference between a ravaged voice (Minnelli) and ones that have burnished through care, proper use and time (Tony Bennett, Barbara Cook ... even Eartha Kitt) and acquired a gorgeous patina.
JBSinger
Broadway Star Joined: 11/12/04
#15re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 3:41pmLiza's vocal distress is due just as much to her physical distress as it is to her career of hard belting. She literally gives a 110% whether she's got it or not. Like Callas, she sings on her "principal" not her "interest" and has destroyed the core of her voice. I saw her in concert last year and even though the bloom of the rose has fallen from her voice, it was an incredible show and a master class in showmanship and lyric interpretation. Even with her current voice, she is more interesting than 90% of the Bway girls out there belting their faces off. Let's just be thankful that its in tune. Betty Buckley's singing has been horribly flat in recent years. I can take an older, weathered sound, but not a flat one.
jaso937
Stand-by Joined: 5/20/07
#16re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 3:43pmI recently worked with an actor who has nodules on his vocal chords and its heartwrenching to hear him sing. Its not good to sing in an unhealthy way because 1. it is going to really shorten your career 2. Once it gets to a certain point, you'll never get your voice back 3. why hurt yourself deliberately when you can get training and help to sing healthy
Jonny boy
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/30/07
#17re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 3:45pmThough I do respect her... Liza's voice doesnt't do it for me.
TheatreDiva90016
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/10/04
#18re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 3:49pm
"people seem to want to see actors gut their voices reaching for these notes in a modern score."
Are you saying that the notes written in today's scores are HIGHER than those that were written years ago for opera, etc?
Notes don't get higher or harder to hit. It called ‘bad technique’ or ‘lack of training’.
Also, some people just have a natural rasp to their voice (Mellissa Eltheridge comes to mind), but don’t ever try to make your voice sound like that, you’ll just do permanent damage.
"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>>
“I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post.” <<>>
-whatever2
#19re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 5:28pm
Idina is trained, in training and is not ravaging her voice. You may not be a fan, but she is not in her throat; and is doing her belt properly. Perhaps her natural voice is like that?! Some people also speak with naturally raspy voices and are not in danger of losing it, either (i.e. Demi Moore, Cyndy Lauper).
Julie Andrews ended up with problems and required surgery. Julie has a well-trained, non-raspy natural voice (had) -- and still developed problems.
P.S. Just because you cannot belt without tearing your throat to shreds is no reason for you, or anyone, to assume they are throat specialists and know what is going on with someone who can belt without damage.
Love and Stage Lights,
Angela Theresa
Updated On: 12/19/07 at 05:28 PM
#20re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 8:14pm
"Are you saying that the notes written in today's scores are HIGHER than those that were written years ago for opera, etc? "
The notes aren't higher, but while singers would use their head voice or a mix before, they're often now expected to sing those notes with a pure belt. What's where the problem comes in.
"This ocean runs more dark and deep than you may think you know...I'll be the fear of the fire at sea."
-Marie Christine
#21re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 9:48pm
Notes don't get higher or harder to hit. It called ‘bad technique’ or ‘lack of training’.
There's a tremendouis difference between a classicly trained opera singer and a trained or especially untrained musical theater singer. AND most opera singers do not give six performances a week AND pretty well NONE of them are also expected to dance like Chita Rivera as well.
Too many demands on the body, that's all.
http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=972787#3631451
http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=963561#3533883
http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=955158#3440952
http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=954269#3427915
http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=955012#3441622
http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=954344#3428699
TheatreDiva90016
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/10/04
#22re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 9:56pm
It's not just opera.
Peope have been singing these same notes for years.
The problem is, they are now singing them incorrectly.
"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>>
“I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post.” <<>>
-whatever2
colleen_lee
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/16/05
#23re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 10:11pm
It's not so much that they're singing them incorrectly as much as that's the expected aesthetic.
Anyone can sing "Defying Gravity" in their legit voice. It's not even a particularly challenging feat. But no one wants to hear that. And that's the problem.
"You just can't win. Ever. Look at the bright side, at least you are not stuck in First Wives Club: The Musical. That would really suck. "
--Sueleen Gay
#24re: Which do you prefer - Protecting the voice, or grinding it to shreds?
Posted: 12/19/07 at 10:40pmI saw both Idina and Stephanie live. I prefer Idina. Not because she "grinds her vocal cords to shreds" (seriously, if it were half as dangerous as you all were lamenting, she would have lost her voice years ago), but because she played the part better. I go to see the show, not to scrutinize their technique and training (or what I imagine it to be).
Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how
Wanting life but never knowing how
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