#26
Posted: 8/5/26 at 3:23pm
Ariana was extremely good in The Baker’s Wife even though it was a relatively small role.
Sweet Charity with Ariana DeBose being workshopped — Page 2
#27
Posted: 8/5/26 at 3:29pm
Fred Mason said: "Ariana was extremely good in The Baker’s Wife even though it was a relatively small role."
https://www.tiktok.com/@ctwombat/video/7575762762261941535
THIS is extremely good??
#28
Posted: 8/5/26 at 3:51pm
Dolly80 said: "She should never have won the Oscar - and the other awards. She’s a perfectly competent Broadway hoofer, but she’s not a star. She doesn’t have a good enough voice."
I at least agree with the former. While she was good in West Side Story, I personally found plenty of other performances (including those who weren't even nominated) more worthy of the Best Supporting Actress Oscar that year.
There's also this supposed curse of how winning an Oscar at a young age (especially for your first major movie role) can hurt your career moving forward. Looking at her filmography since then, there's some truth to that. Arguably, Academy members probably gave it to her too early in her career and should've given her time to pay her dues.
#29
Posted: 8/5/26 at 4:34pm
I absolutely love Sweet Charity, but I'm convinced it only works in the Fosse staging (yes, not just choreography, but staging) and I only say this based on seeing the TOFT 1980s Fosse revival video and bootlegs of the tour (Donna McKechnie was a perfect fit.) Of course this could change with just the right production, but I think has been an issue with every revival... Ariana isn't a bad choice, although might fall into the issue some had with Debbie Allen (a bit too streetwise for the role.)
Speaking of Sutton--I COMPLETELY forgot that she did an off-Broadway SC...
Updated On: 8/5/26 at 04:34 PM
#30
Posted: 8/5/26 at 5:31pm
EricMontreal22 said: "I absolutely love Sweet Charity, but I'm convinced it only works in the Fosse staging (yes, not just choreography, but staging) and I only say this based on seeing the TOFT 1980s Fosse revival video and bootlegs of the tour (Donna McKechnie was a perfect fit.) Of course this could change with just the right production, but I think has been an issue with every revival... Ariana isn't a bad choice, although might fall into the issue some had with Debbie Allen (a bit too streetwise for the role.)
Speaking of Sutton--I COMPLETELY forgot that she did an off-Broadway SC..."
How was Debbie Allen in it? I love Allen (her Playbill retrospective is one of my favorites), but she seems an odd fit for Charity. I could see her more as Nickie. I can absolutely see McCechnie in this role.
#31
Posted: 8/5/26 at 6:12pm
Voter said: "Fred Mason said: "Ariana was extremely good in The Baker’s Wife even though it was a relatively small role."
https://www.tiktok.com/@ctwombat/video/7575762762261941535
THIS is extremely good??"
It's not bad
#32
Posted: 8/5/26 at 6:57pm
Any time Sweet Charity gets revised, I wonder, "okay, which ending do we get this time?"
#33
Posted: 8/5/26 at 7:13pm
darquegk said: "Any time Sweet Charity gets revised, I wonder, "okay, which ending do we get this time?""
I suspect they'll try yet another new one (love the montage on YT of various endings--which still is missing some) I will say as much as I praised the Fosse production, that "Good Fairy" or whatever ending is... not great and makes Charity look incredibly stupid (I'm surprised it wasn't changed for his 1986 revival.)
#34
Posted: 8/5/26 at 7:26pm
joevitus said: "
How was Debbie Allen in it?I love Allen (her Playbill retrospective is one of my favorites), but she seems an odd fit for Charity. I could see her more as Nickie. I can absolutely see McCechnie in this role."
Keep in mind I watched the TOFT tape over ten years back, and really I was focused almost entirely on the staging, the clever way (with a sort of camera iris effect and the flashing signs) Robert Randolph's sets would transition, etc--I still have pages of notes somewhere (I know, I know...) I thought Debbie was fine but lacked ANY vulnerability and I remember writing a note to the effect of "is she going to punch Oscar?" in the breakup scene.
Side note--I never understood the couple of changes Fosse made for that revival (I assume he made them though originally he was just going to sort of oversee it--it was relatively late in the process that he decided to do it himself) One was getting the great Patricia Zipprodt to do brand new costumes because apparently he was never happy with the costumes from the also great Irene Scharaff (especially for the other Fandango girls) although honestly from photos I probably would have never realized they were completely new designs. The other changes just seem "why:" to me--like the new (at the time some people claimed it was now a rap LOL) I'm the Bravest Individual, the more R&B arrangement of Where Am I Going? (both changes maybe made for Allen and to make it more 1980s although everything else seems very 1960s) and using the film version of the title song, gorgeously sung by Michael Rupert but again... why?
Anyway, I digress. I think besides the full McKechnie tour bootleg on YT there was at least at one time Ann Reinking in the revival (she took over on Broadway for the final four months) which has some of the same issues when Reinking played another Gwen role--Roxie--and again lacks that vulnerability.
#35
Posted: 8/5/26 at 8:44pm
joevitus said: "EricMontreal22 said: "I absolutely love Sweet Charity, but I'm convinced it only works in the Fosse staging (yes, not just choreography, but staging) and I only say this based on seeing the TOFT 1980s Fosse revival video and bootlegs of the tour (Donna McKechnie was a perfect fit.) Of course this could change with just the right production, but I think has been an issue with every revival... Ariana isn't a bad choice, although might fall into the issue some had with Debbie Allen (a bit too streetwise for the role.)
Speaking of Sutton--I COMPLETELY forgot that she did an off-Broadway SC..."
How was Debbie Allen in it?I love Allen (her Playbill retrospective is one of my favorites), but she seems an odd fit for Charity. I could see her more as Nickie. I can absolutely see McCechnie in this role."
Not sure because I couldn't take my eyes off Bebe Neuwirth. I've seen several productions since, including Foster and Applegate, and for me, Bebe's Nickie remains the most thrilling memory of them all. As an aside, whenever I see the the movie, which I do enjoy, I think what a loss that a then 22-year-old Liza Minnelli wasn't cast. as Charity. Talk about having everything that role requires! Alas, IMO, Ariana doesn't come close, especially in the vulnerability and adorability departments.
Sister George
#36
Posted: 8/6/26 at 8:02am
Did you see her live? She gave a terrific performance. I’m not fond of Meadowlark to begin with and the way that number was staged with her on the balcony above was awful. But she gave a very pleasant very sweet performance.
#37
Posted: 8/6/26 at 12:08pm
I think this seems like a misstep. I know it's just a workshop, but DeBose doesn't have the acting chops for this. Her voice isn't great, but honestly, neither were Verdon or MacLaine's voices. But they both had the vulnerability and underlying sadness and neediness that the character requires, as well as the dancing skills and charisma.
The press release emphasizes Charity's optimism, which is true, but that optimism is a self-defense against the loneliness that lies beneath. Having seen DeBose's hamfisted, one-note portrayal of Geneviève in "The Baker's Wife," I'm quite sure she doesn't have the dimensions required for Charity.
Also, the book needs a reworking, and there's no indication in the press release that suggests this is happening. I think it needs a more 21st-century look at the character through a feminist lens. Part of the tragedy of this character is that she believes her value is all connected to her sexual desirability. I think it would benefit from a rethinking of the book and the whole show led by a female team.
BTW, I saw the attempt at this in Leigh Silverman's off-Broadway production starring Sutton Foster. Unfortunately, I think the production was unsuccessful, in large part because of Foster's miscasting. She is a terrific, dynamic triple threat. But her Charity had no vulnerability; that woman had no belief that her sexuality was her currency, and her performance emphasized clowning (in the Carol Burnett style) over complexity. That works beautifully in "Mattress," but is disastrous in "Charity."
The press release emphasizes Charity's optimism, which is true, but that optimism is a self-defense against the loneliness that lies beneath. Having seen DeBose's hamfisted, one-note portrayal of Geneviève in "The Baker's Wife," I'm quite sure she doesn't have the dimensions required for Charity.
Also, the book needs a reworking, and there's no indication in the press release that suggests this is happening. I think it needs a more 21st-century look at the character through a feminist lens. Part of the tragedy of this character is that she believes her value is all connected to her sexual desirability. I think it would benefit from a rethinking of the book and the whole show led by a female team.
BTW, I saw the attempt at this in Leigh Silverman's off-Broadway production starring Sutton Foster. Unfortunately, I think the production was unsuccessful, in large part because of Foster's miscasting. She is a terrific, dynamic triple threat. But her Charity had no vulnerability; that woman had no belief that her sexuality was her currency, and her performance emphasized clowning (in the Carol Burnett style) over complexity. That works beautifully in "Mattress," but is disastrous in "Charity."
#38
Posted: 8/6/26 at 12:18pm
I can't think of any casting that would make me want to sit through this show again.
#39
Posted: 8/6/26 at 2:32pm
TheatreAddict said: "
Also, the book needs a reworking, and there's no indication in the press release that suggests this is happening. I think it needs a more 21st-century look at the character through a feminist lens. Part of the tragedy of this character is that she believes her value is all connected to her sexual desirability. I think it would benefit from a rethinking of the book and the whole show led by a female team."
Could not disagree with this part more, but I generally want to see shows as they were written/concieved. I can, sitting there, say "Well I like this, I don't like that...well that is a sign of the era when it was written." I don't think everything needs to be made to comply with current social/political beliefs or tally with our own personal social/political beliefs. Sweet Charity isn't a new show. It's a show from a pre-feminist era concieved by a sexist male based on a film by another sexist male. It is what it is, and the good parts outshine the dated or bad ones.
Updated On: 8/6/26 at 02:32 PM
#40
Posted: 8/6/26 at 3:44pm
The things that are worth fixing about Sweet Charity have nothing to do with its sexual mores, which are actually more interesting today than they were at the time. It's that damn shrug of an ending, and Neil Simon's lifelong belief that "musicals should neither begin with nor end with songs."
#41
Posted: 8/6/26 at 3:50pm
Alex Kulak2 said: The main problem is that her career trajectory has made no sense. She's the first true triple-threat to break into the mainstream in a long time, and since WSS, she's been in Schmigadoon, that Disney animated film no one saw, and a bunch of bad to forgettable movies in every other genre except musicals. Put her in some musicals, people!"
The main problem is that people just don't really care about her vis a vis she can't sell tickets. Or, worse, after that BAFTA mess find her cringe. Baker's Wife sold out bc it was in a 190 seat theater and was a beloved cult title. Not because of her. And triple threat is not exactly something I'd apply to her. She can sing and act fine. She dances BEAUTIFULLY.
She got very lucky being The Bullet in Hamilton which then lead to Bronx Tale and so on. But nothing she's done has been successful because of her. And that's often what matters when making these casting decisions.
She hasn't really gotten any notable Film/TV work post-WSS either. Which I think is telling. Beyond her talents.
#42
Posted: 8/6/26 at 3:53pm
Voter said: "Fred Mason said: "Ariana was extremely good in The Baker’s Wife even though it was a relatively small role."
https://www.tiktok.com/@ctwombat/video/7575762762261941535
THIS is extremely good??"
I missed this and I'm sorry...the choices she's making vocally make zero sense. And some halfway accent? I'm confused. I may get pitchforks after me for saying this, but she sings like she's a dancer first.
#43
Posted: 8/6/26 at 4:17pm
I'm not an Ariana DeBose apologist, but I find the implications that she's not really that talented (outside of dance) to be sort of baffling. She didn't get lucky being The Bullet, she earned the role through talent and hard work after already having several Broadway credits to her name (including taking over for Tony-winner Patina Miller as the Lead Player in Pippin). She didn't luck into an Oscar, she won it after receiving nearly unanimous critical praise for her performance (and not just her dancing). Her reviews for The Baker's Wife were mostly positive too, even though it's not a dance-heavy role. I agree that most of her post-WSS film/TV work has gone unnoticed, even though much of it has been quite high-profile on paper. I'm glad she seems to be shifting back to the stage, which I do think is the best showcase of her talents. All of that said, she doesn't seem right for Charity, but happy to be proven wrong!
#44
Posted: 8/6/26 at 4:53pm
There are certain roles in shows that take Center Focus. Even if you are not the best singer dancer actor, you got the best part and you are granted the benefit of a great role.
There roles are the Emcee in Cabaret.. Almost everyone who has done the role has shined in a major production; Raul Sparza, Alan Cumming, Michael C Hall and of course Joel Grey. It could be said that Joel Grey and Alan Cumming have never topped the gravitas and excitement of the emcee on other roles.
Another role like that is Anita in West Side Story. And if you are firebrand such as Chita Rivera, Debbie Allen, Rita Moreno or Ariana De Bose.. you walk away with the show or movie. All of the listed "Anita's" won major Awards for their roles. So is it the role? Or is the actor? that makes one stand out and be noticed?
Mind you Chita and Rita have proven themselves in other shows. And to an extent so has Debbie Allen who was surprisingly wonderful as Charity and yes she did show vulnerability. But Ariana has not yet proven herself. . She was okay and acceptable in the Baker's Wife... but nothing more and she was not given a chance in Baker's Wife to show what she does best: Dance
Anita is one of those parts. It is possible that is the role of Anita that put Ariana at the top because up until now, she has not topped it nor come near it.
I am not saying she won't. I am just saying up until now.
There does need to be a marriage of great actor and great part. Such was the case with the above Anita's and the above Emcee's in Cabaret.
This year when Pink hosted the Tony's... I woman I did not even know... She blew me away as the host and I thought thank goodness they got rid of the overrated Ariana Grande as host who I felt was flat as host.
Ariana has to find a role to cater to her talents. She should be playing Nickie and follow in Chita's footsteps but alas she is doing Charity.And maybe it will work and maybe it won't? We shall see.
So is it the actor? or is it the part? that makes up pay attention.
#45
Posted: 8/6/26 at 5:50pm
Rentaholic2 said: "IShe didn't luck into an Oscar, she won it after receiving nearly unanimous critical praise for her performance (and not just her dancing). "
Let's just be honest and say that Steven Spielberg still has a lot of influence in Hollywood. The fact that her career has never took off after the major award win, is exactly why it's always been a fluke.
#46
Posted: 8/6/26 at 6:24pm
This is an interesting conversation regarding Ariana’s talent. I don’t agree with most of what is being written, but it is interesting.
#47
Posted: 8/6/26 at 6:35pm
For those criticizing DeBose for her career not taking off the say it supposedly should...a reminder that Rita Morena, legendary career that she ultimately had, has openly discussed how she struggled after WSS. She wasn't getting opportunities and offers. The roles (especially non-stereotypical ones) for Latin women weren't there. Similarly, are there really roles that DeBose would have been suited for that she missed out on? Or is her supposed lack of success simply because the opportunities available to her are fewer?
A reminder of Moreno's filmography in the 5-6 years after WSS.
There were probably those in '66-'67 saying her win was a fluke too.
#48
Posted: 8/6/26 at 6:38pm
gibsons2 said: "Rentaholic2 said: "IShe didn't luck into an Oscar, she won it after receiving nearly unanimous critical praise for her performance (and not just her dancing). "
Let's just be honest and say that Steven Spielberg still has a lot of influencein Hollywood. The fact that her career has never took off after the major award win, is exactly why it's always been a fluke.
"Another thing to consider: in post-lockdown 2021, there were half as many movies released as in pre-lockdown 2019. Obviously not on the same level, but her win may have in some way been aided by greatly reduced competition due to COVID as was Aaron Tveit's Tony win,
Sister George
#49
"A reminder of Moreno's filmography in the 5-6 years after WSS. There were probably those in '66-'67 saying her win was a fluke too."
Lucky for Moreno, there was no social media nor internet back in the day. Thus, her filmography shortly after West Side Story likely wasn't ridiculed as much.
Posted: 8/6/26 at 6:48pm
MemorableUserName said: "For those criticizing DeBose for her career not taking off the say it supposedly should...a reminder that Rita Moreno, legendary career that she ultimately had, has openly discussed how she struggled after WSS. She wasn't getting opportunities and offers. The roles (especially non-stereotypical ones) for Latin women weren't there. Similarly, are there really roles that DeBose would have been suited for that she missed out on? Or is her supposed lack of success simply because the opportunities available to her are fewer?"
Of the films that came out since West Side Story (2021) that DeBose could've been a fit for, there's two I can think of: Whitney Houston in I Wanna Dance with Somebody and Elphaba in Wicked. Given the lackluster reception the former received, she pretty much dodged the bullet on that one. With the latter, I remember she sort of teased that she was up for the role in the movie after singing 'The Wizard and I' in the PBS concert.
"A reminder of Moreno's filmography in the 5-6 years after WSS. There were probably those in '66-'67 saying her win was a fluke too."
Lucky for Moreno, there was no social media nor internet back in the day. Thus, her filmography shortly after West Side Story likely wasn't ridiculed as much.
#50
Posted: 8/6/26 at 8:11pm
SisterGeorge said: "gibsons2 said: "Rentaholic2 said: "IShe didn't luck into an Oscar, she won it after receiving nearly unanimous critical praise for her performance (and not just her dancing). "
Let's just be honest and say that Steven Spielberg still has a lot of influencein Hollywood. The fact that her career has never took off after the major award win, is exactly why it's always been a fluke.
"Another thing to consider: in post-lockdown 2021, there were half as many movies released as in pre-lockdown 2019. Obviously not on the same level, but her win may have in some way been aided by greatly reduced competition due to COVID as was Aaron Tveit's Tony win,
"
There were 10 nominees for Best Picture that year, several of which would have been contenders in any year (because of covid, many of them were basically released on streaming, with a limited theatrical run just to be award eligible). So it really wasn't considered a weak year in that sense. And her category was certainly competitive - she was up against the likes of Judi Dench and Kirsten Dunst (who many thought was long overdue for some awards recognition). It wasn't an Aaron Tveit situation at all.
I don't know how I became the Debose Defender on this thread, but can we give the girl a little credit for deservedly winning an Oscar!
Updated On: 8/6/26 at 08:11 PM
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