Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....- Page 5
Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
gherbert
Leading Actor Joined: 11/1/03
#100re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:16pm
This is not supposed to be a patriotism cry, it is true.
The American theatre and Broadway and the American musical plus jazz are the only thing thawt this country has given to the arts. And it is gone. Because we inserted this Britsh pop opera that have less of a book than a revue and put them on stage and then people like you say they are the best thing ever.
Wake up! Go buy Hello, Dolly! or My Fair Lady or Fiorello! or A Little Night Music or Cabaret or Camelot or or THe Pajama Game or Bels are Ringing or Funny Girl and listen to them for hours and hours and hours and hours and read about them for years and years and years. Go read The Glass Menagerie and Come Back, Little Sheba and Death of a Salesman or Bus Stop. Then maybe you will begin to understand what Broadway is. Then you might understand the glory the magic that is supposed to be on the stage. Then maybe you can catch a small part of what once effected the world and was the most glorious artistic world that existed from 41st to 54th Streets.
But the minute that you begin saying that Les Mis and Cats and Miss Saigon are the best musicals ever then that institution is dead. It strangles the life and the charm and the music and the words out of it until we will really have nothing left.
It is shocking that you can claim to love Broadway so much and be so ignorant as to what it really is. To what it really was. And one day may some of you realize what the theatres on Broadway today are missing and why Les Mis and Miss Saigon do not even come CLOSE to the beauty of My Fair Lady and Cabaret. These pop operas ruined what I grew up on. What I fell in love with. And the minute that people begin to tell me that they are all we have left I have to fight because what there was and what there still could be is being shrouded by these dispicable industralized Cameron Mackintosh "masterpieces."
And may the day come that musicals gain that charm and that essence back. If you went into Les Mis while it was running and pulled the plugs on the microphones you would be unpleasently surprised.
But Julie Andrews and Carol Channing and Enzio Pinza and Lauren Bacall never needed the aid. And the orchestras were twice as big!
So continue and go on. Tell the world that Les Mis is the best thing that has hit the earth since sliced bread, but know that you are missing something that is the most wonderful art form in the entire world and would still be had this damaging and horrible show never been written.
BSoBW2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/8/04
#101re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:21pm
Les Mis is an amazing show. It has a great story and even better music. Maybe it's not "typical" Broadway, but it still is a great show.
I think there are other great shows, but Les Mis was my first.
What does this mean: "If you went into Les Mis while it was running and pulled the plugs on the microphones you would be unpleasently surprised." ?
Furthermore, Les Mis was a bold show at the time because it was dark and was not happy and gay like the other shows at the time.
As far as "blowing ppl out if their seats?" -- It was during A WAR.
Updated On: 12/8/04 at 01:21 PM
gherbert
Leading Actor Joined: 11/1/03
#102re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:30pm
Because the orchestra in those musicals were aided with lots of synthesizers and some of the people in the show have neither the charm or the power or the factor that can seduce a whole audience with nothing but their natural instrument and nothing else.
No, instead you go to that theatre to be blasted out of your seat. Ethel Merman was just as powerful singing, "Rose's Turn" and no one had to crank her microphone up to maximum so that it is so loud and the orchestra is playing really hard to say, "THIS IS DRAM-A-TIC! THIS IS DRAM-A-TIC! THIS IS LOUD AND POWER-FUL AND DRAM-A-TIC!" No, Miss Merman could sing "Rose's Turn" could sing over a real thirty-piece orchestra and have the same dramatic and powerful effect on an audience.
And South Pacific took place during a war, too, but Ezio Pinza and Mary Martin and Richard Rodgers didn't need to take a bat and hit the audience over the head with it saying, "THIS IS WAR!! WAR IS BAD!! PEOPLE DIE AND WAR IS DRAMATIC AND EVERYTHING IS LOUD AND HIGH AND YELLING AND THAT SHOWS THAT WAR IS BAD! BAD! BAD!" Instead Mr. Rodgers and Mr. Hammerstein and their performers were able to display the horrors and the prejudices and the hate that war creates by "Some Enchanted Evening" and "You Have to Be Carefully Taught" and "Bal'i Hai" and "Softer Than Springtime."
Producers today treat the audience like dung. They dumb them down and underestimate their abilities. People pay exorbitant amounts of money, myself included, to see stuff that is not challenging or funny or charming or dramatic. The emotions and the dramatic quality of Les Mis is completely false and I liked to believe that some people saw that because audiences are not dub. They are incredibly smart. And as Patti LuPone said, "If they are dumb you can make 'em smart." Les Mis treats their audiences like dirt. There are no layers, no subtle gestures, themes, but instead it tells the audience what it wants instead of showing it.
The point is not to have Eponine sping about how much she loves Marius, but to show it and create that through interaction and book and character development. But no, we are told that she loves him and it is 1000 times less powerful.
Ever heard the saying, "Show DON'T tell?"
Updated On: 12/8/04 at 01:30 PM
BSoBW2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/8/04
#103re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:36pm
The "mic problem" has absolutely nothing to do with Les Mis, the show. It is a problem sweeping through all of Broadway.
On a college interview, my interviewer and I were talking about Les Mis and he said his friend was in the orchestra and that it was unbearable. I'll give you that, that the music is often blaring at times. The end result is a great show.
I know I am new here, but I have been lurking for quite some time. Instead of disrupting a thread that is actually positive, why don't you go bring you negative energy to some of those Wicked threads?
The reason Broadway is doing so bad is that people like you insist on living in the fifties. Keep an open mind, if you don't like a show - fine. But there is no way there is not one thing you like about Les Mis.
If it were such a bad show, it would have been in over 40 countries.
misterchoi
Stand-by Joined: 9/5/04
#104re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:40pm
THANK YOU GHERBERT. The difference between broadway and Les Miserables(and wildhorn, for that matter) is extreme.
It destroyed. You are right.
"Yesterday is done. See the pretty countryside. Merrily we roll along, roll along- catching at dreams."- Merrily we roll along
"The living was the prize, the ending's not the story."- Elegies, a song cycle
BSoBW2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/8/04
#105re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:43pmChoi, you are entitled to your opinion, but DON'T put Wildhorn in the same category as Les Mis!
gherbert
Leading Actor Joined: 11/1/03
#106re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:46pm
BSoBW2,
The thing is I cannot live in the fifties because I am only a teenager like the rest of the people on these boards.
But I have searched and researched and read and listened and asked and watched the real great musicals my whole life. And although I may just be a kid I know what REAL Broadway was. Because the Broadway I have been looking for existed only before I was born and that has killed me my whole life.
So there. Call me a purist or narrow-minded, but also call me right. Les Mis destroyed what I loved so much and what the children and the adults and me and everyone should still enjoy today. And that is a fact.
misterchoi
Stand-by Joined: 9/5/04
#107re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:46pmActually, I think Wildhorn's music is very much akin to some of the European imports.
"Yesterday is done. See the pretty countryside. Merrily we roll along, roll along- catching at dreams."- Merrily we roll along
"The living was the prize, the ending's not the story."- Elegies, a song cycle
#108re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:48pm
haha one of the biggest complaints I always had when going to see Les Miserables was that it was not loud enough...
BSoBW2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/8/04
#109re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:49pm
Yes, but Les Mis is better than anything he could even dream of writing.
What is Broadway? Flashy shows? Dancing? Color? Maybe it was time for a reform, for America to catch up. But I can't argue anymore - when there are probably more Les Mis fans than enemies on this board...(Exhibit A: This thread)
So, gherbert, are you a fan of The Producers - that's more Broadway-ish?
gherbert
Leading Actor Joined: 11/1/03
#110re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:50pm
Wildhorn is the result of Les Mis, so misterchoi is absolutely correct in stating that he is in the same class a Les Mis.
Wildhorn is worse because he attempts to make his Cliff Notes version of works in the public domain legitimate musical when all they really are are ridiculous displays of his inadequacy as a composer.
BSoBW2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/8/04
#111re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:54pm
Fine, he may be the spawn of Les Mis - but at least Les Mis has more taste - which even YOU have to agree with.
Although I liked Dracula, it is NO Les Mis.
So, do you like Les Mis, the book? Maybe that's the trouble. Do you like Rent? Cabaret, THE REVIVAL...I know the music is different, but the shows are all dark in nature.
gherbert
Leading Actor Joined: 11/1/03
#112re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:54pm
No I am not a big fan of The Producers. That's another thread, however.
I AM however a fan of Nathan Lane's performance. There is a grave difference.
Lane gave a real Broadway star performance, another thing that Les Mis and Miss Saigon destroyed: Broadway stardom. The Producers itself is just an extended theatre in-joke, but Lane gives a performance that is worthy of recognition.
#113re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:57pm
Does Lea Salonga not have the voice of a Broadway star?
I have another question for you: If a performer is trying to convey emotion and passion in their voice and vary the volume, do you think that when singing softly, they are supposed to overpower an entire orchestra? Sorry, but however WONDERFUL your Broadway performers from 60 years ago were, they were still human and a whisper of emotion or quiet singing could NOT cover an orchestra.
BSoBW2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/8/04
#114re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:57pm
Well, I am going to stop arguing. Broadway has to change with the times. The old "Follies" style musicals are not as big as they used to be, sorry. If they were, there would be more of them on Broadway.
Hollywood changed, Broadway changes.
misterchoi
Stand-by Joined: 9/5/04
#115re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 1:59pm
Darkness has no effect on the piece. Wildhorn's work and Les Miz are not disappointhing because they are sad and dark stories.
Cabaret and RENT are both phenomenal shows and their mountings on broadway were phenomenal.
Les Miserables had a beautiful mounting, its just a degrating show.
"Yesterday is done. See the pretty countryside. Merrily we roll along, roll along- catching at dreams."- Merrily we roll along
"The living was the prize, the ending's not the story."- Elegies, a song cycle
gherbert
Leading Actor Joined: 11/1/03
#116re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 2:01pm
Les Mis the book is a wonderful piece of literature, just not material for a musical at all.
And I LOVE Cabaret and the current revival was very good. It is not dark shows that I have a problem with, just when they are down-trodden and ugly pieces of theatre like Les Mis.
Revivals are not good for Broadway for another reason, but the recent revival accomplished re-defining a show and giving it a new feeling and audience and that is what a revival do.
But revivals trhemselves suck the life out of Broadway. They are wonderful sometimes, but that is what City Center used to be for. Broadway is a place where new work is developed and created, not a place to rehash old material, which is why I do not like songbook revues or shows like Mamma Mia! and All Shook Up. The occasional revival that works to really rediscover an old show is good and has been done since the 50's, really beginning with the 1952 revival of Pal Joey.
#117re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 2:01pmEverything changes... get over it and try to enjoy it instead of making yourself miserable over it.
BSoBW2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/8/04
#118re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 2:04pm
Degrading...to Broadway?
Explain POTO, then.
Well, 15-20 years - I better be seeing a Les Mis revival. Besides, if the show were so bad, it would not have a rememberance tomb outside of the Imperial theatre.
Accept it, Broadway is changing.
And Les Mis may not be classic Broadway, but it is classic new-Broadway. And new-Broadway is better.
gherbert
Leading Actor Joined: 11/1/03
#119re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 2:17pm
Can you actually see a Les Mis revival. The thing about the Broadway musicals of yore was that the director had a job.
I am not a big fan of Andrew Lloyd Webber, but if you can look at my earlier posts, have no strong objections to Phantom of the Opera or Evita because Hal Prince was able to work with them and give them some directorial flare.
Les Mis is so stale. You can't do anything with it. It is a "stand there -- sing --- special effect -- stand there -- sing -- special effect" show. Trevor Nunn and John Caird couldn't do anything with the show worth re-discovering and tweaking because the material is so rigid.
#120re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 2:21pmso pretty much there isn't enough dancing?
#121re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 2:24pm
I'm very surprised you don't like Les Miz's book, because I think it's one of the strongest for a sung-through musical, ever. It's true that there is a lot of "inner explication" through the sung monologues, but this is no different from Shakespeare's soliliquys which reveal the inner conflicts of characters.
You cannot deny the emotional power of Les Miz. A lot of shows have played the world over; few have hit the kinds of deep nerves that Les Miz has. When the Tiananmen Square massacre happened in 1990, a lot of people around the world found the parallels to Les Miz chilling, and took solace in the musical. Same thing with the civil revolutions in the Czech Republic.
Although I certainly understand the reasons behind the contempt for "the big four," I also see a lot of xenophobia behind the criticism. If Les Miz was written by an American, would you have such fervent disgust for it?
BlueWizard's blog: The Rambling Corner
HEDWIG: "The road is my home. In reflecting upon the people whom I have come upon in my travels, I cannot help but think of the people who have come upon me."
jmaclover
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/13/04
#122re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 2:28pm
It's about time you posted BSoBW -
Heartache - are your insane?
Stead and sing? you dumba$$ - it's an opera, the whole thing is singing! There's no dancing - the best part - I would kill myself if there were another TAP SHOW!
Thanks a lot, BlueWizard, you took all my arguements!
gheartache is just retarded, this is a PRO LES MIS thread - go away before someone pushes you off the barricade - you call a high horse!
"I've often said I should put sweets in my chair - they'd spend less time on my a** that way....." ~F.W.B.
Borstalboy
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/9/04
#123re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 2:30pmThis thread is so neat!
"Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing.”
~ Muhammad Ali
gherbert
Leading Actor Joined: 11/1/03
#124re: Les Misérables: There will never be anything better....
Posted: 12/8/04 at 2:32pm
And further more, I would not argue so adamantly if I thought that you had a real comprehensive knowlegde and view of ALL of musical theatre. That's The Black Crook to The Ziegfeld Follies to No No Nannette to Pal Joey to Oklahoma! to Carousel to Guys and Dolls to The Pajama Game to My Fair Lady to West Side Story to Gypsy to Hello, Dolly! to Fiddler on the Roof to Cabaret to Promises, Promises to Hair to Company to Follies to A Little Night Music to A Chorus Line to Chicago to On the Twentieth Century to 42nd Street to Cats to Nine to Dreamgirls to Sunday in the Park with George to La Cage aux Folles to Les Miserables to The Phantom of the Opera to Grand Hotel to Rent to The Producers to The Full Monty to Avenue Q (and I may have forgotten a few and some are out of order cause this is off the top of my head) and everything in between!!!!!
And I am not saying that you don't have a grasp on what musical theatre is and for all I know you may very well have all that knowledge but I was not originally objecting to people liking Les Mis, I was saying that people are whining "Broadway is chaging! Broadway is changing!" when they don't have the slightest clue what it changed from!!!!!! So you can sit there and say, "Broadway is changing" under your breath as many times as you liked, but what I am objecting to and fighting is people knowing and only paying attention to musical from 1987 on when the wealth and the bulk and the best work was done decades before.
And if that could happen I would be happier already.
Updated On: 12/8/04 at 02:32 PM
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