bad belting
bad belting
wickedkiwi
Stand-by Joined: 8/5/04
#0bad belting
Posted: 1/7/06 at 9:24pm
first of all, please forgive me beforehand if i'm in the wrong message board, it just didn't seem to fit under the student board, which is more for high school/college auditions, apparently.
i'm a natural belter, have been one forever and it's sort of my trademark, since where i live most singers are legit. however, lately i've been interested in pursuing opera, which i can also do (badly) so i've switched teachers and asked him to train me in opera, hoping that both styles will increase my performance diversity.
the point is, since i've been working with him, i have become extremely confused as to what belting TRULY is. i mean i know: loud, open, brassy, but according to me all that belting is, volume aside, is a readjusting of the mouth into a square shape (see "The Belt/Pop Phenomenon")., versus the oval shaped mouth required for legit singing.
my teacher has obviously been correcting the shape of my mouth, but he constantly says it sounds nasal and twangy, which worries me - is belting naturally like this? i always sort of figured this was simply my voice. now that i'm singing with this technique, i'm sounding a lot more linda eder and a lot less ethel merman. is linda eder belting? or is this simply a chest-head voice mix she carries to her upper registers? is there a difference?
which brings me to another question? why are American females obsessed with belting? My teacher mentioned that it is a phenomenon ALL broadway singers seem to have, a nasality to their voice ("character voice" he calls it, vs their aptly called "legitimate voice"). the scary part is, that even among the best (idina, eden, bernadette, merman, lupone) - they ALL sound nasal! but nasality is wrong isn't it? and also possibly potentially damaging to the voice? He says the phenomenon is less present in British voices, (he mentioned webber musicals, and i guess he's right, by listening to phantom/WIW/joseph/cats/etc), and that, suprisingly, is only a phenomenon in WHITE american women - (whereas african americans are permitted to keep their legit voices).
so what? belting really IS bad? maybe thats the reason many people don't like musical theater - because the voices can be annoying? can and should belting and nasality be seperated from each other, or are they intertwined? where does this leave less nasal "belters" such as celine dion, linda eder, and (arguably) sarah ramirez?
anyway, this is getting a little long. any insight on this would be great.
Tenme por lo que soy, por lo que puedo ser, y si te importo hoy, tenme nena, o vete!
BwayBaby18
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/19/05
greenegirl87
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/11/05
#2re: bad belting
Posted: 1/7/06 at 10:07pmOuch! That was harsh...
"But now the air is filled with confusion. We replace care with illusion."
#3re: bad belting
Posted: 1/7/06 at 10:18pm
I've never known belting to be bad for ones voice. I've had many voice teachers who have all said that belting is fine for your voice if done correctly. but those have all been broadway style vocal teachers.
according to my friends teacher, an opera style teacher, belting is damaging to your voice.
i suppose it may be a difference in opinion, all depending on what your teachers specialty is.
EDIT: I thought she may have been talking about Uma Thurman.
Updated On: 1/7/06 at 10:18 PM
#4re: bad belting
Posted: 1/7/06 at 10:36pmBeing nasal isn't bad, it's just not what operatic singing calls for. My voice teacher constantly tells me the same thing- to get the sound out of my nose, even though it doesn't even sound to me like it's nasal at all. The position is just different for the 2 genres. Musical theater is more up front and in your face (aka nose), and opera is more about the space in the top and back, away from your face.
wickedkiwi
Stand-by Joined: 8/5/04
#5re: bad belting
Posted: 1/7/06 at 10:41pm
well to a certain extent it IS about idina menzel. according to this man, idina menzel's voice is nasal and not as beautiful as she could sound singing with a legit voice. (ps. i haven't seen the producers yet so i dunno how uma's singing is)
i guess maybe it IS a difference in opinion, his specialty is opera, he's actually a semi-famous tenor, from what i've heard. but still, i agree with him: nasal sucks, and i don't want to sound nasal, but i do want to belt....
it's gotten to the degree where he's forbidden me from listening to broadway soundtracks, unless its something like south pacific or my fair lady, so i'm not tempted to imitate them. not that i mind, i like plenty other types of music, but hey, belting can't sound THAT terrible to the un-musical-theater ear can it?
Tenme por lo que soy, por lo que puedo ser, y si te importo hoy, tenme nena, o vete!
songbird21
Chorus Member Joined: 12/28/05
#6re: bad belting
Posted: 1/7/06 at 10:52pm
Breath support is the key thing when belting, for me at least. If your voice is "nasal" and it's just a trait of your voice, embrace it!
And I have no idea where the whole belting obsession has come from. I think if done properly, it can sound powerful and some singers, such as Marin Mazzie, can make it sound beautiful. People like Idina, on the other hand, don't belt so much as scream, which I attribute to poor breath support (her hiccup breaths on the Tonys, for example. Painful)
#7re: bad belting
Posted: 1/7/06 at 11:01pmI also think tht belting has caused people who haven't studied voice to think that singing legit is a weaker voice, which is completely untrue.
"We don't value the lily less for not being made of flint and built to last. Life's bounty is in it's flow, later is too late. Where is the song when it's been sung, the dance when it's been danced? It's only we humans who want to own the future too."
- Tom Stoppard, Shipwreck
#8re: bad belting
Posted: 1/7/06 at 11:08pm
HAHA, if you don't think legit singing is loud, you've never seen an opera!
Putting your voice in a nasal place is not necessarily damaging, but it'll give you a smaller sound. However, you can place your voice forward but less in your nose and get a strong mix out of it.
Trust me, there's a bigger difference between belting and opera than just mouth shape.
-Anyone want to turn anarchist with me?"Bless you and all who know you, oh wise and penguined one." ~YouWantItWhen????
#9re: bad belting
Posted: 1/7/06 at 11:27pmI didn't think the Uma thing was that bad, I liked it alot actually, if that was really her.
Joshua488
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/29/04
#10re: bad belting
Posted: 1/7/06 at 11:40pm
You know who is an awful belter? Kristin Chenoweth. Can we say neck tension? She's a great singer when it comes to opera and whatnot, but when she turns on her "Broadway belt," it's a bit painful to watch.
My voice teacher, who is an opera singer (soprano), says that a lot of times, it is very difficult for classically trained singers to transition into the musical theatre style; all of their training gets thrown to the wind when it comes time to switch.
I love Kristin, but her straining gets to me.
BroadwayGirl107
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/26/03
#11re: bad belting
Posted: 1/7/06 at 11:51pm
The "nasal" sound simply happens because belting is much closer to the actual sound (and sometimes placement) of one's matural speaking voice. So, if one's speaking voice is a bit nasal, a similar tone may come across in the belting.
And no, belting is not bad for you. However, it must be done properly, or else it can be extremely damaging, not to mention it will probably sound downright dreadful. It can take a loooong time for one to train to belt correctly, because it's about precise placement and gradually expanding one's range through vocalizing.
I find that most classically-trained people in generall will denounce belting as incorrect, but perhaps it's a view that comes from the training they come from. Belting and classical singing can be like two completely different languages.
Isabella2
Broadway Star Joined: 10/6/05
#12re: bad belting
Posted: 1/7/06 at 11:51pm
hooo, bwaybaby you crack my **** up. yeah i've pretty much agreed with everyone here. belting has A LOT more to do with things that just mouth shape. and beliting bad for your voice? c'mon that's ridiculous... being nasal doesn't affect your voice in a negative way, don't worry. it can only make you sound horrible. (ex. idina menzel, and fran drescher, even tho she's not a singer.) i also consider Donna Murphy to be quite nasal at times but it's a quality that suits her and makes her great. it gives her versatality, and i've heard her sing many different roles. i guess i'm lucky, because i could only really make myself sound nasal if i tried hard, don't get me wrong there's a lot of things about my voice that i don't like, but being nasal isn't a problem.
Updated On: 9/6/06 at 11:51 PM
wickedkiwi
Stand-by Joined: 8/5/04
#13re: bad belting
Posted: 1/7/06 at 11:54pm
hmm i agree joshua, and her voice sounds very small and whiny at times because of this. but i guess she's lucky she has her opera voice to support her.
so the better performer would what? sing both? does anybody know WHAT linda eder does? is it the same thing? what about belts from heather headley and audra mcdonald? are these true belts or are they singing with powerful legit voices?
why do we all have to sing with character voices? is this why few broadway artists manage to break through to the pop music scene? how do pop belters deal with this character voice?
Tenme por lo que soy, por lo que puedo ser, y si te importo hoy, tenme nena, o vete!
DramaDork925
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/4/05
#14re: bad belting
Posted: 1/8/06 at 12:06amI think the best sounding belt is a strong legit voice. I have a really strong voice but sometimes think my legit voice is weak (and it isn't at all) so I belt because it's comfortable and sounds better to me. I don't mind nasal singing... I'm a little nasal myself at times because I try to keep the sound forward and I love Idina's voice (not so much at the Tony's though). I think Broadway style singing is all about having an individual voice so nasally works for some people.
Am I cut out to spend my time this way?
#15re: bad belting
Posted: 1/8/06 at 12:11am
"I think Broadway style singing is all about having an individual voice"
I would 100% agree with that. I think Idina's belt works for her, I'm a fan. In my opinion, as far as the way you're singing is not damaging, however you sound is unique and your own. Some may like it and others may not. But this is theatre.
phantom_tenor
Leading Actor Joined: 1/11/05
#16re: bad belting
Posted: 1/8/06 at 12:12am
A surprisingly large number of DRAMATIC operatic voices use what could be described (arguably) as a belt technique, with an added vibrato. The wonderful Leo Nucci is notorious for it, and Placido Domingo has been known to use a forceful forward placement when he wants some oomf on the big notes. There is no one "right" classical technique. In fact, you will find there are a plethora of different, often conflicting theories on correct vocal production, many of which are legitimate and work differently for different voices.
Belting is a technique that is slowly gaining a wider amount of recognition as a legitimate means of vocal production amoung classical circles.
When belting correctly, in moderation, there is no possible way damage can occur (unless the singer tries to sing outside his/her range, etc etc), as correct belting involves placing the note so far forward that the forcefulness involved has to do entirely with the flow of air rather than any strain placed on the chords, and the force is kept away from the throat.
Bad belting is very common, and usually involves the singer forcing through the throat. It's not pretty.
TinyDancer
Understudy Joined: 10/27/05
Understudy Joined: 12/31/69
#18re: bad belting
Posted: 1/8/06 at 1:54am
wow, tinydancer..i feel like i should have paid a fee for that last entry! that was some very good information!! i hope people appreciated the time you took to post that! very accurate.
and no..i am not being sarcastic!
i also think that with a good voice teacher one will fine their own true voice and sound...not EVERYONE has to belt to be on Broadway.
this new SCREAM singing has me a little concerned and i won't name names but there is only so long that they will be able to do that. as for me..i will stuck with my healthy mix/belt whether i ever get to be in Wicked or not!! i refuse to scream! and thats that!
elphaba.scares.me
Broadway Star Joined: 10/23/04
#19re: bad belting
Posted: 1/8/06 at 2:18am
Your voice teacher is right in that in order to clear your head, it's a good idea to stop listening to your show tunes for a while. Just like if you want to sing pop, you should listen to only pop for a while, etc.
Or maybe "should" is too strong a word, but it's always been helpful for me to do a kind of immersion when I'm working on a new style.
It doesn't mean you'll never listen to Broadway music again, but I'll bet you'll gain something by putting those CD's on the shelf for a while...good luck...
wickedkiwi
Stand-by Joined: 8/5/04
#20re: bad belting
Posted: 1/8/06 at 7:13pm
wow, thanks so much everyone for all the advice and support!, it's incredibly reassuring!
i'm going to go ahead and answer to a few particular posts and at the same time clarify a few things about my specific situation. i hope this is helping others as much as its helping me.
Pinguin: you say there's a bigger difference between belting and the operatic voice than mouth shape? could you (or anyone else) expand a little bit more on that?
broadwaygirl107- you say that the nasal speaking voice may = nasal belting voice...interestingly, my voice is high pitched, but not really nasal. i've found my voice to be lower and more staccato when i speak in my first language (spanish) but softer and higher pitched in english. perhaps at times this is when it is most nasal. i think my nasality though comes from having attempted to imitate (since i began to sing) my favorite broadway singers.
i agree with everyone when they say that belting isn't bad for my vocal health, or terrible, at least, but i do as an artist want to sound GOOD, and according to my voice teacher a legit (even if its not operatic) singing voice will fit more with my physical body type, and shows off my voice, which he says is very beautiful but sounds less so when i belt. i think the difference would lie between playing roles like Maria, Sandy, Christine, Lucy, Elisa, or other leading ladies, and playing roles like Annie, Mme Thenardier, Mama Rose, etc, which are much more character roles (even though some are leads). i see the second choice as interesting, but more limiting. however if i keep both...
i guess in this respect i'd agree with dramadork that i could simply belt in a legit voice rather than a ...belt voice? broadway voice? i'd disagree in the respect that broadway is about unique voices...yes, idina sounds very different from ethel merman, but its the same TYPE of voice, and there's very little diversity in the type. most females are belty, slightly squeaky and range in nasality. on the other hand, you very rarely hear voices such as that of sarah ramirez for example, who is legit/jazzy.your voice may be unique and distinguishable, but your style isn't. i'm not sure whether being an original and having limited roles is better than sounding like everybody else (which is what my teacher says i sound like when i belt) and having more roles to choose from. linda eder for example - sounds great as lucy, but could she play elphaba? or brooklyn? she'll never play mama rose or Annie, that's for sure - is this good or bad?
phantom tenor: thank you for the clarification on dramatic voices...if i were to go down the opera path, this would most likely be my type of voice, at least when i'm old enough. so an operatic voice can, i assume, belt also? however the sound is still dissimilar to broadway belting is it not? how and why?
i was actually taught to belt by an opera singer (at my request), and now because of scheduling conflicts i'm working with her son, who (at my request also) is teaching me to sing legit. anyway, she is probably the reason why i'm a "good" belter, in the sense that i've dominated a proper support technique for the belt and do not rely on the throat. however this nasality thing bothers me endlessly. maybe it's because it's frowned upon highly among singers in my culture.
as for the mix, i'm a natural mixer, to the degree that i only recently discovered that my mix voice was NOT my head voice. this is the area of my training that is lacking now, and is what i'm focusing on.
BY THE WAY, i'm confused - what's better, to have an operatic voice like maria callas wich is more crystalline and vibrates more, or like charlotte church, who has less vibrato and has a much more airy, opaque voice? what is the sound that i should be trying to imitate, as an opera singer?
notice how i unfortunately depend on imitation...
tinydancer - if what you say is right, then there is really no need to belt, or at least one can tackle tipically belt songs without belting or by belting sparingly. then, again, why are females expected to belt? is this a result of a lack of classical training? a demand of the business? DO NON-BELT LEGIT MIXERS HAVE A PLACE ON BROADWAY?
again, forgive me for the length - i find all this extremely interesting.
Tenme por lo que soy, por lo que puedo ser, y si te importo hoy, tenme nena, o vete!
Isabella2
Broadway Star Joined: 10/6/05
#21re: bad belting
Posted: 1/8/06 at 8:16pmsorry to say, but as a devoted lover of opera i must say that i think people like maria callas and charlotte church are horrible. If you want to find a good example of opera singing listen to some natalie dessay or renee fleming. audra mcdonald is pretty go also.
wickedkiwi
Stand-by Joined: 8/5/04
#22re: bad belting
Posted: 1/9/06 at 1:49am
wow, really?
charlotte church i had heard, but maria callas? i thought she was revered in the operatic world! why exactly is she horrible?
Tenme por lo que soy, por lo que puedo ser, y si te importo hoy, tenme nena, o vete!
clarky
Stand-by Joined: 4/25/04
#23re: bad belting
Posted: 1/9/06 at 8:44am
I don't think belting is about the beauty of a voice. It is about power and character.
I wonder what your voice teacher would think about Linda Eder or Barbra Streisand. They both sound incredible healthy and they are excellent singers who belt.
#24re: bad belting
Posted: 1/9/06 at 10:28am
After reading all this I suppose all I want to throw in is this:
Don't worry so much about where other people's voices fall, and who you should emulate. I definitely have spent a lot of time doing that as well but I'm finding it's not as important as simply getting to know your OWN voice. Your voice will never truly be comparable to anyone elses, so stop trying to get it to fit in a box. 
It's good to learn as many styles of singing as you can, and learn when and how to apply them. In the end, it's your call on how you want to sing a specific song and what technique you feel is the best to use. My voice teacher is classically trained as well so she's often trying to get me to round out my sound even when I'm singing something I THINK sounds better with a more nasal sound. (She always says, "Nasal is good if you're auditioning for Adeleine in Guys & Dolls but not this!" hahah)
Everyone's voice is different, enjoy playing around with yours. I can sound completely different depending on what song and style I'm singing, and I like to be versatile. Some singers prefer to just stick to one type and modify that a bit if required. Just figure out what works for you!
--Like an odd exotic creature on display inside a zoo, hearing children asking questions makes me ask some questions too...--
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