WIZ...traditional casting/non traditional for revival- Page 3
WIZ...traditional casting/non traditional for revival
broadwayguy2
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/18/03
#50re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/1/04 at 11:49pm"original intent" intent would be dirived from the book of the piece... and as has been said, the book is being changed.. and what was the intent of the first version, may not in fact be the intent of the second.
crp2000
Leading Actor Joined: 12/2/03
#51re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/2/04 at 8:53am
I've always said this board (and broadway in general) was full of racial/cultural ignorance and MANY of the remarks on this board continue to prove me right.
Anyway - I'd like to hear more about this Marcy Harriel. I've seen Little Shop and therefore KNOW that Dequina Moore can sing her face off, however I'd like to hear more about her competition. Is it official that the role of Dorothy has been cast already? Last I heard, they were trying to get Tamyra Gray (former American Idol contender) to take the role.
TheBalladeer
Broadway Star Joined: 7/27/03
#52re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/2/04 at 10:32am
Thetruth, I absolutely agree with your comments about mixed casting with shows like Annie and Little Shop, and Gypsy. These shows don't have any language or specific styles that are catered to a specific group. Even Fiddler can be done that way, but I have always felt that it is borderline pushing it when you cast the leads in any other ethnicity that would not pass for a Russian Jew during those times. I'm not against it, but I think that something like that should be handled with care especially since "Fiddler" is a show that deals with struggles that pertain to the a specific Jewish community. Although we all can relate to oppression and strife and struggle on some level, I don't think the integrity and the message of the show should be compromised just for the sake experimentation. Hell, I've played Motel before, but I don't know if I would want to play Tevye someday even if I were offered the part...I just would think it's pushing the logic and the purpose of color-blind casting.
Cheers,
The Balladeer
"Someone tell the story...Someone sing the song...."
Auggie27
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/13/03
#53re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/2/04 at 10:54am
Shoving white actors in the Wiz would hardly be political progress -- let's face it, just stunt casting of a bizarre sort. It makes no sense aesthetically, artistically, to whiten up a pointedly "soulful" take on the Wizard of Oz.
What's next, Lea de Laria, Judy Kaye and Krisin Chenoweth in Ain't Misbehavin'? Maybe they'd have a good time, but wouldn't it be pointless? To agree with the Balladeer: when we have a black Millie, or black Elphaba (interesting, that), and how about a black woman in Judy Kaye's role in Mama, Mia? Why are those gal pals of Donna always white?
I have posted before, but non-traditinal casting has always made even ultra-liberals timid. Look no further than the late Joe Papp and Michael Bennet, who never, ever put black people in white roles in their cash cow, CHORUS LINE. Never did a black woman get a shot at Sheila, Cassie. And yet non-Latinas played Morales. So let's focus our energies on broadening the opportunities for everyone in a realistic way, not trying to "stretch" white people in black parts to prove it can be done. That's not progress, or multiculturalism at work, just silly casting in a shaky industry that needs to thrive on sollid decisions.
"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling
Updated On: 3/2/04 at 10:54 AM
robbiej
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#54re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/2/04 at 12:39pm
Oy...I'm swamped at work...but I had to bring up one point.
Everyone is ignoring what has happened in popular culture since THE WIZ first came out. Black music, language and culture has been appropriated by white suburban kids to a remarkable degree.
THE WIZ is a show based on a 'white' property and given a 'black' spin. For the early 70's, it was new and fresh (though not well-reviewed...all of you thinking this show is up there with GYPSY in terms of quality should look again). Today, an all-black WIZ would reek of the minstrel show. BRING IN 'DA NOISE... and nearly the entirety of George C. Wolfe's writings have in a way debunked the popularity of THE WIZ in it's original form.
I truly believe that THE WIZ can't work with an all-black cast not because and all-black cast can't sell, but because time has marched on and rendered that sort of entertainment obsolete.
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
broadwayguy2
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/18/03
#55re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/2/04 at 1:41pmalso it would do well to remember that while The Wiz originally opened and posted a closing notice the same week, and yet went on to have a hugely successful four year run, the revival in the mid 80s tanked it two weeks and plans for a Broadway engagement of the tour in the 90s were scrapped... there is something that spoken to the auiences in the 70s that did not speak to them in the 80s and 90s.. and like I said, the book is being reworked.. so the base of the piece is different...
TheBalladeer
Broadway Star Joined: 7/27/03
#56re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/2/04 at 2:02pm
Robbie,
I think your whole post has it backwards. It WOULD be a minstrel show if an all white cast attempted to perform the show and the lingo. And do it in a way that is almost poking fun at it. That's the dilemma with including white characters in the leads....either you make fun of the material, be tongue-in-cheek, or play it sincerely. Either way, it is bound to fall flat on its face and even insult some. They just can't do it. It's embarrassing for the performers, and for the audience, especially black audiences.
As a black performer, and a young man who has grown up watching and listening to the Wiz, I have no problem seeing the dialogue and the show performed how it was originally written and conceived. Yes there are a lot of jokes, and even some stereotypes related to the black culture, but you see, I think the thing about African-Americans overall is that we are willing to laugh at ourselves, and are fully aware of how we portray ourselves. Especially in something like The Wiz, which is light-hearted, a farce, and fun. That is how we were able to overcome and persevere through all the hardships that we have endured in the past. WE CAN laugh at ourselves. And the material in that show does not go THAT far to the extent that it makes a mockery of who we are.
I don't see what point you're trying to make at all. And I find you to be a very intelligent young man, but I think you are taking whatever sympathy/empathy you might have, and getting carried away with it, honestly. But I thank you for your sentiments.
As for your point on the lingo becoming part of white suburban culture, you are just supporting my whole point, and thetruth's point, and others who talk about what "soul" REALLY is. Do you think that these white suburban kids who MOST of them grow up in an environment where they are not really exposed to most of the world out there, REALLY have an iota of what most of the lingo REALLY means, and where it derives from? Honestly, I think not. The popularity of it all comes from them thinking it's the cool thing to do now...but they have NO clue how these things all came about. And when they do it, in my honest opinion, it sounds stupid, and makes them look clueless, and that much more ignorant.
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers,
The Balladeer
"Someone tell the story...Someone sing the song...."
Updated On: 3/2/04 at 02:02 PM
robbiej
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#57re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/2/04 at 3:16pm
Balladeer,
I thank you for your points and will try to clarify mine further.
First of all, I never, ever suggested an all-white version of THE WIZ. I believe that YES, that could be offensive and degrading to African-Americans. But I'm not talking about a theoretical all-white production. I'm speaking of the Dodger's planned revival, which will be multi-culti. And I will stand by my beliefs that producing it multi-ethnically is the best way for it to work these days. The world has changed as has black theatre. Although I wasn't there, I believe THE WIZ developed out of a need for a black musical comedy that wasn't a revival of an already white musical. And, to a certain popular, if not critical, degree it suceeded. It made it's statement. Then came works like DREAMGIRLS, NOISE/FUNK, JELLY'S LAST JAM and ONCE ON THIS ISLAND (an important musical that deals with the disparity between light-skinned blacks and dark-skinned blacks, which loses all its power when done in a multi-culti version) which, in a way, rendered THE WIZ useless as it was originally presented. No longer was visibility the only goal...it was creating a musical that dealt in depth with the African-American experience. It was about being not only entertaining, but political. What could be more political these days than a black girl getting lost, meeting an Asian scarecrow, a black tinman and a latino lion and all of them linking arms to go find the answers from the Wizard...and it turns out that it's just some old white guy who really knows nothing. And then the beautiful, Nubian goddess comes and reveals that the only thing that young black girl needs is the belief in herself.
Do I know that's how it's going to be cast? No. But it could be a hell of a powerful message that actually improves upon its original intent.
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
TheBalladeer
Broadway Star Joined: 7/27/03
#58re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/2/04 at 3:33pm
Robbie,
Wow, now that does sound interesting.....granted that there is actually THOUGHT behind the casting, and not multi-ethnic casting just for the sake of it. And you know, I wouldn't have a problem with using other minorities in The Wiz, because face it, Latinos, and Asians, and Pacific Islanders, and others of darker skin tones really don't have that many opportunities. I just feel that casting without much thought would really ruin something special.
Cheers,
The Balladeer
"Someone tell the story...Someone sing the song...."
robbiej
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#59re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/2/04 at 3:38pm
Ain't that the truth, Balladeer!
Casting without thought (whether non-traditional or not) happens WAAAAAAY to often in this business.
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
Auggie27
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/13/03
#60not the time for the WIZ to return
Posted: 3/2/04 at 7:48pm
What this thread suggests -- particularly the latest impassioned and thoughtful debate between Robbie and Balladeer -- is: This is so not the time for this show to return. Cast with blacks, whites, both, or authentic Munchkins, it's not likely to sell. The idea that it will benefit from the "Wicked" phenom is lame logic. "Wicked" is a new story, whether you like it or not, you know you'll find surprises. I buy all arguments above re why folks won't buy tix to a "Wiz". Remember, the last time it came back ... it played the Beacon Theater, B'way and 74th. And didn't sell well.
If it must return, then why not as a charming new TV version? Using current pop stars? The existing film is a debacle, with murky cinematography, ugly sets, a make-up free Ross playing "shy" trying to warm our cockles. I'll watch it at home for free, but wouldn't plunk down a hundred bucks (or 51.50) to dart out on a cold night and see it at the Virginia.
"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling
Updated On: 3/2/04 at 07:48 PM
broadwayguy2
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/18/03
#61re: not the time for the WIZ to return
Posted: 3/2/04 at 8:19pm
I agree on wanting a new GOOD version of The Wiz on film.
The Beacon production was a stop as part of a National Tour that reunited Stephanie Mills and Andre deShields in their original roles. The show was rumored for a Broadway transfer, but, as you said, did not sell well and the idea was dropped. The 1984 revival lasted 14 performances at the Lunt.
ORPHAN
Understudy Joined: 10/17/03
#62re: re: not the time for the WIZ to return
Posted: 3/2/04 at 11:04pmThe Wiz has got to go through a major revamp (book, esp) so it doesn't sound outdated to the point of being absurd (right on man, jive turkey, slap me five kinda stuff) The current book of that show is loaded with junk like that. I have got to say that anyone who has been black for a day and a half just festers with pus over not that dorothy would be cast non black, but that white people only want to see multi ethnic casting when i comes to black shows. Of course a new vision should prevail, but WHY DO YOU ONLY CARE WHEN IT'S A BLACK SHOW? I never see a debate and i mean never over GYPSY or NINE or any other revival. NEVER...
orphan
ORPHAN
Understudy Joined: 10/17/03
#63re: re: re: not the time for the WIZ to return
Posted: 3/2/04 at 11:07pmcan anyone tell me WHY white people only care about mixing it up when its black stuff? i mean when will it end? Somebody white answer this question please!
orphan
#64re: re: re: re: not the time for the wiz to return
Posted: 3/3/04 at 7:55ambecause we're all secretly racists who want to see blacks excluded from all theatre, especially shows that were written for them. man that's our favorite and we get such a sense of pride when we can influence folks to avoid casting black folks in black shows. that is at least when we are not out there burning crosses and planning lynchings, which as eveyone knows take up most of our time.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
crp2000
Leading Actor Joined: 12/2/03
#65re: re: re: re: re: not the time for the wiz to return
Posted: 3/3/04 at 8:38am
Orphan - I would LOVE to read a response to that question, for I was preparing to post the same one! No one seems to touch on the fact that 98% of broadway & off-broadway shows are 99.9% white. Yet - here we have a discussion about 'multi-culti' casting in ONE historically-black show. I even recall reading a thread on this board where one person was wondering if/when they'd be casting a 'white woman' in the role of AIDA.
This type of ignorance exists because so many people choose to IGNORE the fact that racism still exists. Sad - truly sad.
Papalovesmambo - I'm not quite sure how to 'read' you. You're either extremely racist/ignorant or truly sarcastic and HILARIOUS.
robbiej
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#66re: re: re: re: re: re: not the time for the wiz to return
Posted: 3/3/04 at 12:52pm
Well count me as one honky who would love to see an all-black STREETCAR or CAT ON A HOT TIN ROOF.
But the fact that alot of you are not even reading the reasonings some of us are posting as to why we should have a multi-culti WIZ. And that's distressing.
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
stop!
Stand-by Joined: 2/20/04
#67re: re: re: re: re: re: re: not the time for the wiz to return
Posted: 3/3/04 at 1:22pm
"and how about a black woman in Judy Kaye's role in Mama, Mia? Why are those gal pals of Donna always white?"
check this out...
http://www.broadway.com/template_3.asp?CI=34530&CT=26
GET A LIFE!!!
ORPHAN
Understudy Joined: 10/17/03
#68re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: not the time for the wiz to return
Posted: 3/3/04 at 10:52pm
papalovesmambo
of course we all know racism is not the driving force for all people white black or otherwise. Now... take the question to heart and make an attempt to see the truth of my observation and try to put your honest thoughts on the board. Your post is nonsense and pours water on an issue that is real and worth discussing. If you just want to dismiss the facts thats another thing. think of a discussion on why gay people shouldn't be allowed to get married like everyone else and some straight observer saying, "because everyone hates gays and wishes they would get straight and stop wining about not being like everyone else... their not!" this would be nonsense and be an obvious stupid answser from someone who knows gays are discriminated against but just wants them to shut up and stay in their silly little place and stop trying to get justice. In other words the observer doesnt have an answer for the question. he just doesnt effect him so dismiss it. he knows the real truth but so what... who cares.
orphan
#69re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: not the time for the wiz to return
Posted: 3/3/04 at 11:09pm
*Duckin' into Orphan's Amen corner*
It is interesting that many have compared the gay movement to the black civil rights movement. But B'way which is filled with gay folks is severly lacking in diversity. Hmmmmmm...
crp2000
Leading Actor Joined: 12/2/03
#70re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: not the time for the wiz to return
Posted: 3/4/04 at 9:10am
I think the show should be given a chance to thrive in it's original format first. If LATER they find that there is indeed room or need for change/non-minority casting, then so be it.
#71re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: not the time for the wiz to return
Posted: 3/4/04 at 9:30amwouldn't THAT cost alot of money...
#72re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: not the time for the wiz to return
Posted: 3/4/04 at 9:56amwouldn't WHAT cost a lot of money? If you mean to "retool" the show after it has opened - most definitely.
"I don't really get the ending,all i can go with is when after several months,Judith saw Pat sang,and later she kissed him on the toilet,after that the story back to where Pat went down from the stage after he'd sung,and he went to the italian lady.I just don't get it,what Judith exatcly meant when he kissed Pat that she had seen,and did Pat end up together with The Italian Lady?Please help me,thank u very much!"
Quote from someone on IMDB in reference to a movie he/she didn't understand. Such grammar!
#73re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: not the time for the wiz to return
Posted: 3/4/04 at 10:00am
yes, that's what i was referring to...
robbiej
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#74re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: not the time for the wiz to return
Posted: 3/4/04 at 11:04am
crp-
the original casting of the show is black...not 'minority'. That statement implies all colors (except white) are created equal (which I don't thing you believe for a second).
The point is the Dodgers are NOT CASTING A WHITE PRODUCTION. It will be a multi-ethnic production which is appropriate to the times we are living in and can, indeed, make a powerful statement.
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
Videos