WIZ...traditional casting/non traditional for revival- Page 2
WIZ...traditional casting/non traditional for revival
tappedout
Stand-by Joined: 10/22/03
#25re: racism
Posted: 2/29/04 at 2:07pm
"that's because it is incredibly racist and ignorant. everyone has different tones to their voices regardless of their color."
This is true but generally speaking there are different tones to the voices between blacks and whites. I don't think this is racist, it is like saying everyone has different hair when denying that there are distinct differences between the hair of black women and white women(generally).
you think you know but you have no idea.....
#26re: re: racism
Posted: 2/29/04 at 2:14pm
"[t]his is true but generally speaking there are different tones to the voices between blacks and whites."
i will be very interested to see some examples of this. be specific please.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
WestEndBird
Stand-by Joined: 2/21/04
#27re: re: re: racism
Posted: 2/29/04 at 2:19pmI am a firm believer in staying true to the essence of an idea if recreating it...Leads should be cast as black and the rest of the cast can be mixed...I agree with some of the earlier posts saying that there arent a lot of musicals that can cast black people in the lead, so I would like to see them lead here again.
"Even if I could let you see me cry you would never understand what I was feeling inside, you see it and use it but dont believe in it..."
tappedout
Stand-by Joined: 10/22/03
#28re: re: re: racism
Posted: 2/29/04 at 2:24pm
OK i will try for some examples. The one I had in mind when writing the last post was Chicago. I was listening to the original cast recording and when Mama came on I went "wait, this woman sounds white."
I don't know Papa maybe you are right and it is too hard to compare voices because everyone has their own distinct sound that is uniquely their own and unrelated to race or ethnicity.
you think you know but you have no idea.....
#29re: re: re: re: racism
Posted: 2/29/04 at 2:45pm
and if you listen to early elvis recordings the furor was that he sounded "black." could you say by listening to them whether or not nat king cole was black or white? does vanessa williams have a "black" voice? what exactly is a black voice as opposed to a white voice?
i have no problem with casting for a specific reason, but i have a major problem with some of the statements that a show was "not written for white people" and that black and white voices are inherently different.
chicago was based on the 1942 film "roxie hart" which was in turn based on a 1927 film "chicago" based on the true story of roxie hart in which the character was mrs. morton and she was irish. and the character later used in the movie was created on broadway by mary mccarty another white irish woman.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/31/69
#30re: re: re: re: re: racism
Posted: 2/29/04 at 3:06pm
and if you listen to early elvis recordings the furor was that he sounded "black
No but ther is a song he sings on the LILO & STITCH soundtrack that makes him sound a whole lot like CHER
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/31/69
#31re: re: re: re: re: re: racism
Posted: 2/29/04 at 6:26pm
Jon, you know I love you more than my luggage, right? 
You never fail to make me chuckle.
Love,
Joshie
MasterLcZ
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/12/03
#32The WIZ
Posted: 2/29/04 at 6:46pm
If done properly, an updated, contemporary inventively staged version of THE WIZ has the potential to be the most exciting revival of whatever season it will appear in.
Count me in as someone who thinks the leads should be African-American, but I think (sadly) that the rest of the cast has to be 'mixed' for crossover potential. I don't think an ALL-black Broadway show will attract the audiences today, though I'd love to be proven wrong.
My one real fear is that in updating it, "soul" will be superceded by an orgy of 'American Idol' melisma.
"Christ, Bette Davis?!?!"
#33wizzing on tradition
Posted: 2/29/04 at 6:55pm
"[i] don't think an [all]-black [b]roadway show will attract the audiences today, though [i]'d love to be proven wrong."
i disagree (somebody get some smelling salts for master as i'm sure i have shocked him to the very core of his being with that statement). i don't think that the ethnic make-up of the supporting cast will make or break the show. there are enough talented african american performers to fully cast this show. the audiences will flock to a quality product regardless of the races of the performers. heck, the original ran for four years and that was in the 70's. i can't imagine that a quality production now would derive less support than the original based solely on the race of the performers. ain't i a study in contradictions?
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
MasterLcZ
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/12/03
#34re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 2/29/04 at 7:03pm
Yes you ARE, papa! You are very exasperating, ya know!
But I still wonder whether Broadway audiences of the 1970s were less conservative than the Broadway audience of today.
And whatever happened to Liz Swados, anyway?
"Christ, Bette Davis?!?!"
#35re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 2/29/04 at 7:15pm
hehehehe!
the only concern is ticket prices, master. i think that today's broadway audience is just as open to something interesting as it was in the 70's but it has to be something both interesting and entertaining. $100 is too much to pay to see something that's a nice try. with proper marketing and a good product though, you could sell the pants off "the wiz" regardless of whether the cast is blacker than my coffee.
hey, i still think that with a better book and some revised lyrics "taboo" would still be running.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#36re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 2/29/04 at 11:38pmPapa, I think you're missing the point that Billy is trying to make about the "diffrences between black voices and white voices." I think you are looking at it from a biological standpoint. I do believe that genetics has something to do with it, which I understand that you disagree with. My point is that we are talking about "soul" singing which is diffrent from what type of voice you have. Soul singing is more about how you use the voice. The prime example is Christina Aguilera. Despite the fact that she is branded a pop singer. Christina is really a soul singer because you can see that she is singing from a place of hurt an deep pain in her heart (I'm reffering to some of those more personal ballads on her newest CD) Then you have someone like Anastacia, a white women with a soulful voice, but she is not a soul singer IMO. She doesn't sing from that same place that Christina does nor Vanessa Williams or Audra Mcdonald (as much as I love them both). I think thats' what soul music, The music in The Wiz is all about. It's not about being black or white. It's really a cultural issue. And black culture is condusive to producing the type of singers that can sing the type of music in The Wiz. Soul singing, R&B, all that stuff started in the black church. Nowadays people think you can throw in some riffs and runs and vocal pyrotechnics and be a soul singer. True soul voices like Patti, Aretha, and Gladys have all been cultivated and trained in the black church. Soul music is a product of the black experience in America. I'm not sayin' you gotta go to a black church to be in The Wiz, but anybody singing that type of music has got to be aware of the roots of the music and where it originated. So, I would be for some mixed casting in this production, but you've got to have the real deal, black or white!
Kavana
Featured Actor Joined: 5/16/03
#37re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/1/04 at 12:09am
*sipping on some apple cider waiting for my 21st bday on the 17th so i can drink liquor and watching a bootleg of Bombay Dreams wondering why and how this show is coming to Broadway*
Thetruth you tried it and u kno u made me gag with that Anastacia not a soul singer...
You have to get into her latest single Miss Ana went rock..all her albums are all over the place i dont know what she is giving maybe Tina Turner???
BUT YES THE GIRL ON THIS BOARD ARE TRYING IT being all raciest and with the nasty comments.
Mind you there was a post about race and only 2 people posted.
Most of the people on this board are bigots thats why they jumped all over Ragtime cause there were black people in it
Kavana doesnt say much on these boards but when the girl does SHE DOES..
GET INTO IT
ORPHAN HONEY this ones for you:
"Doesn't every show on bway cast with talent in mind? Of course they do.... of course!"
Are you being sarcastic?
Thats a bold face lie...In my opinion i think black performers sing better then white performers and im not saying that because im black.
Lillias White can sing better then Bernadette P,
you may disagree but the fact is No one will give her a chance you would have to change the whole cast of Gypsy...blacks would kill that show (kill is good) but people dont have an open mind to things like that even though it is the truth.
Mind you whatever period Aida is taking place in Egypt those people DID NOT have pale skin HELLO YOU LIVE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
So why cant a the whole cast be black?
Because white people are the majority that go to the theater.
stop!
Stand-by Joined: 2/20/04
#38re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/1/04 at 12:15amwow i really feel bad now for posting this thread i hope no one was offended by it.....i was jsut curious to see what peoples thoughts of it were....i myself who have seen to many all white hs and college secretly wished to see the original and hence would like to see a nice soulful black production but however they cast it i really hope it keeps the feel of the original with whatever changes are made.
GET A LIFE!!!
ORPHAN
Understudy Joined: 10/17/03
#39re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/1/04 at 1:06amthere are so many other roles for a black female lead on broadway. why not give the role of Dorethy in The Wiz to a white actor?
orphan
TheBalladeer
Broadway Star Joined: 7/27/03
#40re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/1/04 at 1:12am
Well,
Papa, I think you and others who are thinking the way you are are totally missing the point of a musical like "The Wiz".
The Wiz WAS written for a black cast, and you can tell that by the dialogue, lingo, and the way the script was written. Kavana, Billy, and thetruth bring up some interesting points about the way "soulful singing" is presented, and how it comes about. I wouldn't consider myself a "soulful" singer, being that my style of singing these days is primarily in the musical theatre style, but that doesn't mean that I cannot switch from that style when the time is appropriate, or when need be, and sing in a more soulful way. "Soul" is a combination of state of mind, and experiences.
Whoever mentioned Christina Aguilera and Shoshana Bean really hit the nail on the head. These two if you really know their backstory realize that they have grown up in an environment of either pain, and have deep emotions welled-up inside, OR they were exposed to the type of lifestyle and to the different backgrounds and experiences needed to have a sense of soul. This is why they are able to sing in an EFFECTIVE soulful way even though they are not black.
And I DO think that there is a difference between black voices and white voices naturally. It has taken me years to try and "polish" the way voice is/was for my musical theatre studies, but now and then there is always that something in my voice that indicates that I am a black singer. I don't think we can ever get away from that - and honestly, I don't think we should. Can I tell that Audra McDonald is black when I listen to her? Yes. Norm Lewis? Brian Stokes Mitchell? LaChanze? Yes. Even though these singers all have beautiful voices, and big broadway voices, we if we listen closely, we can still tell that they are African-American.
But going back to "The Wiz" I think it is imperative that we keep this show with an predominantly black cast. Why? Unless the script is severely changed, which it shouldn't be....I think it just doesn't work otherwise. I think there are certain things that white people just can't grasp TOTALLY about the black experience, no matter how smart, and in the know the are about the struggle, and about our society, and about our lifestyle. And BELIEVE me, I am not racist, or trying to denounce diverse casting in musicals...I am all for it....when appropriate. The Wiz is NOT the show to experiment with this on. The lingo and dialogue is too specific and catered to the black experience, and it some of it would just fall flat, and lose its effect if delivered by a white person, or any other ethnicity who really doesn't grasp the meaning behind it. I've seen a production of the Wiz lately where 3 out of the 4 leads were white, and I did not enjoy the experience at all....they REALLY did not get the lingo and the meaning behind it, and it really was cringe worthy, in my opinion. And the Dorothy DID NOT have any soul whatsoever.....it just totally ruined the experience for me.
I say let Blacks and minorities have "The Wiz" please. There is no need to try and reinvent it. I feel a disaster coming on if this happens. I'm sure you CAN find the right people out there of any race to do this show well, but I seriously doubt, as Billy Lawlor said that this show was written for that intention. I am sure that William Brown and Charlie Smalls had written for black folk, and I think it should be respected for that and maintained in that way, in EVERY major revival. It WAS written for our black performers who didn't have much of an opportunity to showcase their talents due to the lack of roles that are out there for them.
As an African American actor myself, I KNOW how hard it is to be cast in these traditional musicals....It has gotten better with the non-traditional casting, but how much nicer is it to know that you have a show, or a few shows of your own that you know you don't have to worry about if you are the right skin color or type to be cast in? Me? I don't see why there can't be a Black "Seymour" "Nicely-Nicely" "Mama Rose" "Reno Sweeney" "Mrs. Lovett" the list goes on and on....but believe it or not, some casting directors out there still have problems with thinking outside of the box when it comes to this type of casting. Then again, I have played roles where I am not conventionally right for it, and it has worked. I am thankful for some of the wonderful directors who I have worked with in the past who were able to look past my color, and cast me (within logic, and not drastically changing the meaning and intention of the script)for my talents and interpretation of the role. And there have been a couple of instances where although I was glad I got the role, I felt that it was borderline pushing it.
Just as I would not immediately warm up to a white Dorothy, I don't know if I would warm up immediately to a black Tevye in Fiddler....although I am sure in both cases a capable actor/actress could allow me to suspend my disbelief, I don't know if that is pushing it. At least, I would feel uncomfortable if I were cast in any of the previous 2 situations. And this is coming from someone who LOVES "Fiddler" and the role of "Tevye", and who would love to play the role. But to each his own.
Just my 2 dollars worth.
Cheers,
The Balladeer
"Someone tell the story...Someone sing the song...."
Updated On: 3/1/04 at 01:12 AM
broadwayguy2
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/18/03
#41re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/1/04 at 1:28am
*ahem* I was not alive at the time, but there was an all black revival of Guys And Dolls on Broadway and recently, there was an interacial national tour.. I think that if one expects non-traditional casting to work one way, they should expect it and allow to work in reverse as well.. perhaps it is a stretch, but I would draw a parellel to the current political climate surrounding same sex marriage..marriage is only for heterosexuals in some people's views and other's want that allowed for homosexuals as well.. those opposed to it say that marriage was not created or intended for that type of union.. here peopel are expecting non-tradional casting in predominantly white roles, but when the shoe is on the other foot, they become upset.. I DO think that crosses a line into hypocracy.
It is also do to remember that The Wiz was written in the early 70s when there was still MUCH racial tension..there were still distinctly white and black in MANY things and interracial marriage was still a VERY taboo thing.. mixing of the races was not laregly accepted still in many people's personal views .. with this revival, Smalls has already stated publicly that the book, and in turn I gather the sound and orchestrations, will be updated to be more reflective and relevent of our current times.. much like the recent revival of The Rocky Horror Show (which I MUCH prefer to the 'classic' vesrion). The Wiz, in it's current and original form is VERY seventies specific in sound and in construction and language..if that is updated to be more accessible and identifiable to modern audiences, then so must other aspects of the production. And one thing there is teh fact that racial division is not as drastic is it was in the mid 70s.. interracial marriage for example is a LOT more common.. for example, since that time, there is a biracial option on many forms that require you to indicate race.. interracial casting should work fine with the 'new' Wiz just so long as the actors cast have the spunk and power to fulfill the demands of the score, which, I thihnk, will sound a lot more updated and reflect current trends.. just as the original did.
::steps off of soap box::
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/31/69
#42re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/1/04 at 1:59am
KAVANA-- and now in English please?
I am sorry, I was trying to follow you there but you went all over the board.
And by the way, We are all not bigots but I have to admit that show me someone who is 100% politically correct and I will have some ocean front property in Colorado for you to buy.
ORPHAN
Understudy Joined: 10/17/03
#43re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/1/04 at 2:00amBalladeer and every other black performer how the hell do you make a living on bway singing and dancing in the chorus. Go to hip hop! bway just wants you to make the cast "look" colorful and fun. like "See were all here having a ball up on stage". I watched the oscars tonight and you can't go there either the audience looked like, "there's too much money and fame here to let yall in". man it was prettier and whiter dan all yalls toothez put together! just stay over in hip hop and basketball. what else yall want? A show of yo' own? go get oprah and will smith and some other rich black people to put the money up! Bway don't want yall for nothin' but "blackground". and white peoples wondas why yall so sad all da time. Look yall gets to be slaves (Aida), maids (Caroline or Change), Africans (the Lion King) Fat mamas and po ole loveable civil rights please negros (Hairspray) and just wait... soon yall gets to be basketball players in Disney's HOOPZ about da good ole harlem globe trotters!!! So shut up yalls winin' and complainin'. When little white Dorothy is up dare on stage singin her heart out in the WIZ, the only leading role written for a black woman in 30 years.... you will get the message... white audiences don't want to pay no big ticket prices to see the chorus playin the lead. and there isn't one black book writer, composer, lyricist, director, associate diretor, company manager, INVESTOR, producer, of big time bway musicals no where working or in line for a real chance. and the funny as it may seem the most successful ORCHESTRATOR ALIVE is BLACK, HAROLD WHEELER (The Wiz, Dreamgirls, A Chorus Line, Hairspray, on and on). Oh well guess bway isn't racist at all.
orphan
ORPHAN
Understudy Joined: 10/17/03
#44re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/1/04 at 2:29ami would like to say something to broadwayguy. The most insidious thing about being black in america is that the principles you are talking about are right. when applied fairly. It is painful to anyone black or gay or nonwhite to be outside the application of those principles everyday and when one situation comes along that was created to give you a shot, good people like you decide the APPLY the noble principle and say that NO THE WIZ should be cast according to these high diversity standards. Yet sadly your voice is silent when Little Shop or NINE or Gypsy etc comes on line. Its only when the chance for a majority black cast show is discussed that your voice becomes heard.
orphan
broadwayguy2
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/18/03
#45re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/1/04 at 2:36am
because I saw no need to become involved in the fray, where as here it has clearly sparked a very heated debate..
And the main reason I became involved in the fray is because Smalls has openly stated that the libretto, and safe to say score, was going to be updated to play better with contemporary society.. the show opened in the seventies and MANY aspects of the show are clearly of the seventies.. if the libretto, the CORE of the piece, is being updated to speak in more modern terms, then consequently, so would the rest of the staging. One of the major themes being race.. and the race factor plays VERY differently in 2004 than it did in 1975.. that is all I am saying... perhaps it is just following suit with the update of the book... you won't be seeing the original libretto and score set to new physical aspects, you are seeing a reworked piece from the ground up.. that is all I intended to say..
Updated On: 3/1/04 at 02:36 AM
#46re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/1/04 at 3:30pm
OK, put two white pople in like Millie and 42nd street and call it a day.
Or, have em come out and sing a showstopper then fade in the background with no type of recognition (Hairspray).
#47re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/1/04 at 8:45pmI'm thrilled that some of you were seeing the points I'm trying to make. The Balladeer hit it on the nose. The show was not written for a white cast, and it would be pulled off more appropriately by an all black cast- end of story. Of course, things could end up differently with the updates that are happening, but they show I know---the show we all know----is better suited for black people.
musicaltheatreman
Broadway Star Joined: 5/22/03
#48re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/1/04 at 9:42pmthetruth that is so funny what you wrote and the truth!!!!!! LOL :)
#49re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: re: wizzing on tradition
Posted: 3/1/04 at 11:42pmI think shows like Gypsy or like Annie could do well with multi racial/mixed casting because they've been revived and done so many times. It inject something new. Lord knows we've hashed out BP's performance with others before her. And we've dissected Kerry Butler's perfomance in Lil' Shop. I think mixed casting could deflect some of those comparisons. I believe this is the second time the show has been revivied on bway. I can understand "updating" but I think any drastic changes like a non-black dorothy should come down the line because of the original intent of the piece.
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