Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???- Page 3
Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
SamIAm
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/18/04
#50re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:23am
You have the distinct honor of living during the same time as Sondheim and watching his work first hand. That would be like watching Babe Ruth play baseball. Enjoy it. He is the real thing!
Just because a show is a hit (especially in this day and age) doesn't mean it is theatrically solid or good. So, no I wouldn't judge Sondheim based on having a huge hit. Also, when you judge someone that way you deny the importance of experimentation and change. If all anyone worries about is a huge hit, no one will ever evolve in art.
To have a body of work like Sondheim's, you are bound to see some clinkers in terms of songs that didn't quite work etc...but that is true of most composers. Anyone writing or recording today has a trunk full of stuff that never made it or that they wished they'd never written. That is part of the creative process. It is the sum of the parts and the longevity of the talent you have to look at to know whether someone is truly a 'genius' that has had a long and very successful career or whether someone has changed the face of an industry. Sondheim definitely qualifies.
"Life is a lesson in humility"
Updated On: 10/21/05 at 11:23 AM
#51re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:28am
is air overrated? maybe-- but for breathing, it's the best we have.
Mind is Mantra.
Updated On: 10/21/05 at 11:28 AM
VIETgrlTerifa
Broadway Legend Joined: 1/18/04
#52re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:28amTo the general public who only know bits and pieces of musical theather, he's way underrated. However, on Broadwayworld.com, he's way overrated. You can't criticize him without your head being bit off or being treated as an intellectually inferior nitwit whose opinions don't matter by some.
"I've got to get me out of here
This place is full of dirty old men
And the navigators and their mappy maps
And moldy heads and pissing on sugar cubes
While you stare at your books."
SorryGrateful
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/10/05
#53re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:29amLouW95-- No, his shows usually do NOT make money. But I really don't think that that's a very productive or accurate way to judge anyone's talent.
You promised me poems. ~Tricky
#54re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:31amI agree, Master---not everything Shakespeare, Williams, and Sondheim wrote is good or brilliant. Everyone has exceptions. :)
fiatlux
Featured Actor Joined: 3/22/05
#55re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:32am
Your statement was:
"but the fact remains that he never had a Jerry Herman-sized hit. Never."
Mozart didn't manage such hit in his lifetime either. Neither has Pinter or Miller or Chekhov and I daresay Shakespeare wouldn't run for five years on Broadway. The point that you make would only be interesting if you were comparing the same sort of thing.
#56re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:32am
"Rock took over popular music in the mid 1960s, so a comparison of Sondheim's popular hit output to the likes of Rodgers & Hammerstein or Lerner & Loewe is really not a fair assessment."
To me, this sounds exactly like using rock music as an excuse for Sondheim's reception into pop culture. You're saying that it's not fair to compare Sondheim's popularity to previous composers because they didn't have to compete with rock music. Music from Hair, Pippin as well as the shows you've mentioned HAS been on the Billboard charts- while competing with rock music- so I don't understand why you believe Sondheim can't be held to the same standards as past composers, when other contemporary have been able to live up to these standards.
And just so you know, there's a difference between critical and hysterical.
Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how
Wanting life but never knowing how
ConvinceMe2
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/7/05
#57re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:32amBut my point wasn't about hit songs, it was about hit shows. I was only giving you my opinion of his songs. I almost never listen to a Sondheim song. I don't particularly like his music. Just not a fan; but I was attempting to be objective about him in my original post.
ConvinceMe2 is dead. Long live BrendanStryker!
SamIAm
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/18/04
#58re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:37am
Vietgrrl...don't generalize. Not everyone on BWW bristles when you criticize Sondheim but you had better have a valid criticism. Otherwise, find me a better composer. His work is not perfect...no one's is...but then Babe Ruth didn't hit a home run every time he got up to the plate either and he's still considered one of the best sluggers.
Sondheim has written a lot of music that is little known but still bespeaks the best of human emotion. Songs like Anyone Can Whistle, No More, Move On, Nothing's Gonna Harm You, I Wish I Could Forget You, In Someone's Eyes, Losing My Mind, to name a few. Criticism is accepted by most knowledgeable people provided the person criticising has done their homework and knows what they are talking about. Comments like "Sondheim sucks" are bound to get a raspberry from the most discerning musical theater fans.
I will also say that if you really want to appreciate Sondheim you have to become a 'student' of his work. It it a process of really listening and getting into what he is doing. I don't find his work to be something that hits me immediately. But rather something that grows on me and where I can find layers of meaning as I listen over and over again. That is the mark of a good composition. Not something that is like fast food...catchy but you forget it the next day.
Many of my industry friends believe that his work will not be fully appreciated until he is gone. And to whom will he pass the torch?
"Life is a lesson in humility"
Updated On: 10/21/05 at 11:37 AM
#59re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:46amI have recently discovered Sondheim. That is to say that I have become familiar with his work. (I have known for years who he is.) Anyway, to answer your question, I don't think Sondheim is at all overrated. In fact, in my personal opinion, he is not fully appreciated, if at all, by the theatergoing public. (A lot of his shows don't run more than five years at the most.) The reason, I think, is because his musicals tend to be cerebral rather than spectacle. I have to admit, though, that Sondheim is an acquired taste. His music is not very melodious or hummable(which is what many people desire and are used to). However, he is an excellent lyricist. Personally, I think the lyrics make the song and not vice-versa.
Salve, Regina, Mater misericordiae
Vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra
Salve, Salve Regina
Ad te clamamus exsules filii Eva
Ad te suspiramus, gementes et flentes
O clemens O pia
Vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra
Salve, Salve Regina
Ad te clamamus exsules filii Eva
Ad te suspiramus, gementes et flentes
O clemens O pia
Smaxie
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/26/05
#60re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:55amSondheim doesn't write rock or pop music like the composers of the shows you mentioned, orangeskittles (plus those shows are already 35-40 years old). His style is much more in the traditional Broadway mold, even if his scores are often unconventional. But the world of popular music has changed considerably, and it has left Broadway behind, even when Broadway has embraced pop or rock. (And rising up the Billboard charts doesn't not equate with radio airplay). If you don't believe that the change in popular music is to blame, I ask you: if Lerner and Loewe were writing today, and My Fair Lady was a new show, would you hear "I Could Have Danced All Night" on the radio?
Begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end: then stop.
Updated On: 10/21/05 at 11:55 AM
VIETgrlTerifa
Broadway Legend Joined: 1/18/04
#61re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 12:08pm
If you don't believe that the change in popular music is to blame, I ask you: if Lerner and Loewe were writing today, and My Fair Lady was a new show, would you hear "I Could Have Danced All Night" on the radio?
Maybe not, but who knows... maybe that song is so good that it would've been sampled.
Anyway, I heard Defying Gravity on the radio once...well...it was only once.
"I've got to get me out of here
This place is full of dirty old men
And the navigators and their mappy maps
And moldy heads and pissing on sugar cubes
While you stare at your books."
Tir Na Nog
Stand-by Joined: 3/31/05
#62re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 12:21pm
" have never enjoyed the financial success of Cole Porter, Rodgers & Hart, Jerry Herman, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Frank Loesser, Lerner & Lowe, and many others. In that regard, he is probably somewhat underrated."
Why is it when people talk about art or artists things become monetary? Who the hell cares about finances. Art, and/or, the judgement of art is not supposed to be measured by $$$.
"You can make excuses for Sondheim; but the fact remains that he never had a Jerry Herman-sized hit. Never."
Well considering Jerry Herman only had 3 shows that "hit" that really isn't saying much. Sondheim's show collectively blow Herman away. Herman has run with "Dolly", "La Cage" and "Mame" for over 40 years, and only one of those 3 is any good. Kinda sad actually.
"My point was that by the theater community (people who do theater), he is; by the general public, he isn't. They barely know who he is."
I get what you are saying here. I just don't think you're correct. =) If by "general public" you mean "teenies" and "reality show fans" than yes you would be correct in saying "they barely know who he is" (they also have no idea who Herman is). However, most every day people do know who Sondheim is. Thanks to shows like "Forum" and "Gypsy" and Madonna lol. Baby boomers certainly know who he is.
"I almost never listen to a Sondheim song. I don't particularly like his music. Just not a fan; but I was attempting to be objective about him in my original post."
That is unfortunate. Sondheim is the most brilliant lyricist in musical theater history. Nobody can touch him.
"One difference between poetry and lyrics is that lyrics sort of fade into the background. They fade on the page and live on the stage when set to music". - Stephen Sondheim
VIETgrlTerifa
Broadway Legend Joined: 1/18/04
#63re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 12:27pm
However, most every day people do know who Sondheim is. Thanks to shows like "Forum" and "Gypsy" and Madonna lol. Baby boomers certainly know who he is.
You see, I don't know if that's true. If I were to go up to people on the street and ask them who Sondheim is, they'd probably wouldn't know.
I agree that monetary value shouldn't be the most important factor in determining one's impact or success, but you cannot deny that monetary success usually goes hand-in-hand with the music or work being accessed by the public. You can't impact people unless people actually go and see what you do.
However, that is not to say that Sondheim hasn't had the biggest impact in musical theater today because the people who are making shows and still work in musical theater have no doubt in who Sondheim is and know calibre of his work and have recognized his genius. I guess in that regard, it's not how many you influence, but who you influence.
"I've got to get me out of here
This place is full of dirty old men
And the navigators and their mappy maps
And moldy heads and pissing on sugar cubes
While you stare at your books."
#64re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 12:30pm
If Gregorian monks chanting can have a hit CD in the 1990s, I don't see why you can argue Sondheim isn't popular because his style is too "traditional" for people's tastes.
If Lerner and Loewe were writing today, no, you wouldn't hear My Fair Lady on the radio. But if Mozart and Beethoven and Bach were writing today, 10 years ago or 50 years ago, you wouldn't hear them on the radio either. People can appreciate the history without viewing everyone that progressed with popular culture as being a sellout.
Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how
Updated On: 10/21/05 at 12:30 PM
Wanting life but never knowing how
Tir Na Nog
Stand-by Joined: 3/31/05
#65re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 12:45pm
"You see, I don't know if that's true. If I were to go up to people on the street and ask them who Sondheim is, they'd probably wouldn't know. "
OK Fine. How about I narrow it down to educated people? People who have read books about music history or have ever opened a Playbill. Does that make more sense?
"One difference between poetry and lyrics is that lyrics sort of fade into the background. They fade on the page and live on the stage when set to music". - Stephen Sondheim
Plum
Broadway Legend Joined: 3/4/04
#66re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 12:48pm
*looks at who started the thread*
*isn't surprised*
I'm too tired and not nearly drunk enough for this.
#67re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 12:52pm
Great post Tir Na Nog.
There are many artists who never saw success until after their death
Also, Herman has had more flops than hits. As is the case with most musical theatre writers.
Smaxie
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/26/05
#68re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 12:53pm
There are always some freak successes that come along, like the Gregorian monks or the soundtrack to O Brother Where Art Thou?, but they don't point to a trend or the world of popular music at large.
I'm not calling people who write musical theatre in pop or rock music mode a sell out. Nor do I have any feelings against the popular music that is successful today. (Well, except that I personally prefer hard rock of the '60s and '70s). I'm saying that Sondheim doesn't write that way, by his choice, and the world of popular music has not embraced traditional Broadway for a very long time. It's no reason to fault his efforts, or find him lacking. And that even in his desire to write for the specific needs of the show at hand, rather than popular success, he still has had songs that have broken out - moreso than some posters here are giving him credit for.
Begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end: then stop.
Updated On: 10/21/05 at 12:53 PM
Tir Na Nog
Stand-by Joined: 3/31/05
#69re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 1:01pm
"I'm not calling people who write musical theatre in pop or rock music mode a sell out. Nor do I have any feelings against the popular music that is successful today. (Well, except that I personally prefer hard rock of the '60s and '70s). I'm saying that Sondheim doesn't write that way, by his choice, and the world of popular music has not embraced traditional Broadway for a very long time. It's no reason to fault his efforts, or find him lacking. And that even in his desire to write for the specific needs of the show at hand, rather than popular success, he still has had songs that have broken out - moreso than some posters here are giving him credit for. "
Wait wait wait. I thought the question was if Sondheim is "overrated"? When did "pop music" become the standard to which musical theater composers are judged?
"One difference between poetry and lyrics is that lyrics sort of fade into the background. They fade on the page and live on the stage when set to music". - Stephen Sondheim
#70re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 1:09pm
Tir Na Nog, I have one objection to your previous post. You equate "educated people" with those that have knowledge of the theater or music history, but that's definitely a narrow-minded opinion. You can be educated- even an expert- in a some fields but not have any knowledge in some others. Would you consider yourself educated? How are you at quantum physics? What about African American rhetoric or paper manufacturing?
And this is where pop music came into the argument:
"Rock took over popular music in the mid 1960s, so a comparison of Sondheim's popular hit output to the likes of Rodgers & Hammerstein or Lerner & Loewe is really not a fair assessment."
Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how
Updated On: 10/21/05 at 01:09 PM
Wanting life but never knowing how
#71re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 1:12pm
I'm not a huge Sondheim fan, and I've never actually seen any of his shows - though I do have tickets for Sweeney Todd in November. I have some of the cast recordings of his shows and I find that I can't really sit down and listen to them and enjoy them. I've only seen the video of Into The Woods, and I enjoyed the music very much when I was watching it in action, so to speak, but when I attempt to sit down and put the Into The Woods CD in, I usually get bored with it and turn it off.
Maybe his music has to be 'experienced' by me in order to appreciate it, but just listening to it I find that I prefer other composers. But there is no doubt in my mind that he is very very talented and his work has been so innovative.
Smaxie
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/26/05
#72re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 1:20pmPopular music came into it, because it was my way of saying that what most of the country listens to today is different from what they were listening to in the era of Rodgers & Hammerstein, Lerner & Loewe, and Jerry Herman's '60s successes. Broadway was the popular music of its day for most of the 20th century until around the mid 1960s, and it's not anymore, so to fault Sondheim for not having Rodgers & Hammerstein style song hits seems ridiculous.
Begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end: then stop.
ConvinceMe2
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/7/05
#73re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 1:30pmDid somebody fault him for that? I missed that.
ConvinceMe2 is dead. Long live BrendanStryker!
Smaxie
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/26/05
#74re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 1:45pm
Yeah, ConvinceMe. Can I direct you to this post, written by yourself?
"His shows (and songs, for which he is sole composer, with the exception of SEND IN THE CLOWNS) have never enjoyed the financial success of Cole Porter, Rodgers & Hart, Jerry Herman, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Frank Loesser, Lerner & Lowe, and many others."
Begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end: then stop.
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