Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???- Page 2
Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
ConvinceMe2
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/7/05
#25re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 8:34amWhile I think his songs worked well within the context of the piece, on their own, they're unmemorable to me. Outside the context of his shows, I never want to hear them. Not sure what you mean by overrated. Theater people adore him, so in that regard he is overrated. The general public is indifferent to him. His shows (and songs, for which he is sole composer, with the exception of SEND IN THE CLOWNS) have never enjoyed the financial success of Cole Porter, Rodgers & Hart, Jerry Herman, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Frank Loesser, Lerner & Lowe, and many others. In that regard, he is probably somewhat underrated.
ConvinceMe2 is dead. Long live BrendanStryker!
fiatlux
Featured Actor Joined: 3/22/05
#26re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 8:50am
"Theater people adore him, so in that regard he is overrated."
I'd love to hear the justification of that statement. 
"The general public is indifferent to him."
One of his most successful shows is Side By Side By Sondheim - which takes all those unmemorable tunes out of context and makes it into a very popular entertainment, which plays very successfully .
Smaxie
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/26/05
#27re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 9:03amRock took over popular music in the mid 1960s, so a comparison of Sondheim's popular hit output to the likes of Rodgers & Hammerstein or Lerner & Loewe is really not a fair assessment. (And Herman didn't have a popular hit between Mame in 1966 and La Cage aux Folles in 1983). Sondheim came into his own in 1970 with Company, when popular music was a very different field than his predecessors. Still, "Being Alive," "Ladies Who Lunch," "Losing My Mind," "Send in the Clowns," "Pretty Women," "Not While I'm Around," "Good Thing Going," "Putting it Together," and "No One Is Alone" have all managed to find quite a bit a life outside of the shows they hail from.
Begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end: then stop.
#28re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 9:06amThough I am only beginning to explore Sondheim's work as my taste for musical theatre matures, I think several chosen songs are beautiful out of context. Thus far, I believe my favorite is "Children Will Listen." Judging by the feeling Sondheim's shows evoke in me, I would have to say, no, he is far from overrated. In a world of spoon fed musical theatre (that I have loved for many years) his shows are far superior.
Pretty pretty please don't you ever ever feel like you're less than f**ckin' perfect!
ConvinceMe2
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/7/05
#29re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 9:09amYou can make excuses for Sondheim; but the fact remains that he never had a Jerry Herman-sized hit. Never.
ConvinceMe2 is dead. Long live BrendanStryker!
fiatlux
Featured Actor Joined: 3/22/05
#30re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 9:18am
"You can make excuses for Sondheim; but the fact remains that he never had a Jerry Herman-sized hit. Never."
Neither did Mozart.
MacDonalds serves millions of hamburgers, but the food at the Tour D'Argent is much better.
Updated On: 10/21/05 at 09:18 AM
Featured Actor Joined: 12/31/69
#31re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 9:19am
Life, and the human mind, being what they are, I would venture to guess that there are minds equally as brilliant as Sondheim's circulating in the world of musical theatre as we discuss this. We don't hear about them because the outlets for them to have their work exposed are, more often than not, closed to them.
Why are those outlets closed? It's my belief because of two reasons:
(1) the true decision-makers, those who actually decide what shows will be produced, are surrounded by the administrators who have their own opinions and agendas, and are compelled to act out a personal need to wield power by restricting access to the deicsion-makers based on their own lack of creativity; or
(2) the decision-makers are simply not risk takers, but are instead lemmings who only produce what someone else is already doeing elsewhere because if their production fails they can always fall back on "but it was successful in [name the city]," and their artistic taste is never actually put on the line.
My point is that there is room for Sondheim and his high-quality work, and there is equal room for other high level creative artists who write in their own style.
Art becomes boring, and a staleness sets in when it there is no variety.
To put it another way, "supposed all you ever had were bagels, and in walks an onion roll?"
Sondheim is great, but let's make room for more onion rolls.
#32re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 9:20am
Just because rock music came along during the course of Sondheim's career doesn't give you or him an excuse to mourn his reception into popular culture. This is a man who's birthday is lauded EVERY YEAR in some sort of huge event. I think the only other person that holds that honor is the Queen.
Many musicals have been able to be successful after the evil rock music came along, so your logic is flawed. Some have even USED rock music instead of treating it as a lower genre of music because it doesn't include a full orchestra.
Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how
Updated On: 10/21/05 at 09:20 AM
Wanting life but never knowing how
SorryGrateful
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/10/05
#33re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 9:25amHe's so amazing that, if anything, he's underrated.
You promised me poems. ~Tricky
#34re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 9:26am
Even Jonathan Larson, whose music sounds nothing like Sondheim, was influenced by him.
No, he is not overrated. And certainly not as overrated as some of the musicals that are praised around here.
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/31/69
#35re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 9:30am
Everyone is influenced by anyone who came before.
It's called life.
#36re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 9:37amOh is that what it's called? I had no idea. Thanks for the info.
CDuffy5062
Understudy Joined: 6/18/04
ConvinceMe2
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/7/05
#38re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 10:06amWhat's the Mozart comment mean? It has nothing to do with my post or the point I was making. The question is: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated? My point was that by the theater community (people who do theater), he is; by the general public, he isn't. They barely know who he is. So what is Mozart was ignored by the general public. What's that have to do with anything?
ConvinceMe2 is dead. Long live BrendanStryker!
#39re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 10:11amI had a birthday party for Sondheim this year and one of the guests, who had no idea who he was, kept waiting for him to show up.
moljul
Broadway Star Joined: 5/28/03
#40re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 10:13amLOL Thanks for the giggle, BobbyBubby.
#41re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 10:24am
I think Sondheim is only overrated when each of his works isn't judged on their own merit. Overall, I think his career, talent and influence is undeniable. He is a legend. His place in musical theatre history is secured.
But I get irritated when every time he strikes a chord on the piano, or writes a lyrical phrase, or makes a statement, people automatically clap wildly before they actually listen to it. His works lately have been inferior, not just for him, but for anyone writing for the theatre today.
This happened to Richard Rodgers as well, later in life. There is a glimmer of the genius from decades past, and people cling to it for all sorts of reasons, but it isn't brilliant work. The man is past his prime. He continues to write, and sometimes it's very good and SOMETIMES IT ISN'T. That doesn't mean he isn't a legend or we shouldn't respect him, and it doesn't mean he didn't write Sweeney Todd (a masterpiece in anybody's book). But I try to take his work for what it is, not because it's him that created it.
EDIT: That's the "designer label" mentality... "Don't you just LOVE this??? It's a SONDHEIM, you know."
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
Updated On: 10/22/05 at 10:24 AM
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
SorryGrateful
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/10/05
#42re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 10:36amThat's very nicely said, best12, and I do agree. But I imagine that it might be difficult to sit back on this laurels just because he's created all these masterworks. Why should he just stop because Bounce wasn't the best or because Company was? I'm not saying I disagree with you, although I do believe that Passion is one of his most beautiful and certainly will become a classic in the future, I hope. I just don't think it's as simple as his saying, "Well, I've done all I can and done the best I'll ever do. Time to drop the musical theatre gig."
You promised me poems. ~Tricky
#43re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 10:41am
Not really.
But other composer's work which is equally as great at his - never got the praise he gets - and I am talking about Cy Coleman.
#44re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 10:43am
SorryGrateful --- I understand completely. Imagine if you or I felt that "our best work" was behind us now.
Should we just quit, retire or die? No, I hope not! I think I would be very depressed if Sondheim stopped writing altogether just because he felt this way. He should continue to explore on his own amazing path creatively, and maybe he will hit upon another masterpiece. There is always a chance. That's what I hope for too. I listen eagerly to any of his new works. But I take them for what they are, not for who he is or was. If they work, I am thrilled, and if they don't, I at least acknowledge that they don't. But I don't "write off" the man as a total failure or no-talent. That's an extreme response. Just as much as saying everything he writes is genius... when it isn't.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
robbiej
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#45re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 10:51am
'His works lately have been inferior'
I'm not sure I agree with the plural. Of the later works of Sondheim (ASSASSAINS, PASSION and BOUNCE), only BOUNCE could be considered lesser. The other two, while certainly not perfect, are astonishing works that demand much of their audiences...maybe too much. It took until the concert staging of PASSION for me to appreciate just what it is...musically...structurally. It's, I believe, a masterwork. ASSASSAINS, while not a masterwork on the level of PASSION or SUNDAY..., is still a challenging, thought-provoking and (and this is important) entertaining work that incites strong visceral reactions in many, many people.
"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."
SorryGrateful
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/10/05
#46re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 10:55am
I absolutely see your point, best12. That makes complete sense. For instance, I really hate Anyone Can Whistle for the most part. I appreciate it for what it foretold for the future, but even though IT'S SONDHEIM (trumpets sounding and angels singing), I just cannot get into it. I imagine that he himself would appreciate an honest response from those who listen to his work than just automatic adoration. (That would definitely bug me, at least.) Basically, I'm just agreeing with you. 
You promised me poems. ~Tricky
Smaxie
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/26/05
#47re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:10am
I'm not making excuses for Sondheim, because frankly, he doesn't need my support. He writes what he wants to write, regardless of whether a song will live outside the show or not. (And he has recently said that he has made more money on "Putting it Together" than on any other song he's written, which sounded like it surprised him as much as it does me). He may not have had a Herman-sized hit, ConvinceMe, but my point was that several of the songs I mentioned have been covered by major artists and have had a life outside of their respective shows, far beyond just "Send in the Clowns".
Nor am I blaming rock music for Sondheim's reception into popular culture, OrangeSkittles, as your fairly hysterical response indicates. My point is that the days when a composer would write "I Could Have Danced All Night," "People Will Say We're In Love" or "Till There Was You" and the song would become a #1 pop hit were long over by the time Sondheim came to the fore, so to compare two different eras as a way to fault Sondheim's hit making ability is still an unfair comparison in my opinion. And even the rock shows that have been on Broadway in the last 25 years have failed to get anything on the radio. Why didn't anything from Rent or Hedwig get air play? No show tune since "And I'm Telling You I'm Not Going" or "Memory" has burned up the charts. Musical theatre has just become irrelevant in the world of popular culture. To hold Sondheim up to the hit-making status of another time is impossible.
Begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end: then stop.
LouW95
Leading Actor Joined: 9/27/03
#49re: Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated???
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:12amHe is considered by many to be a genius but as National Public Radio recently reported: Sondheim shows USUALLY do not make money--at least the later ones (this excludes the 1950s and 1960s melodic West Side Story and Gypsy). Some folks here need to remember that these threads are about OPINIONS but some posters continue to be what I have often called elitist and rude.
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