Evita white washing controversy?- Page 4
Evita white washing controversy?
henrikegerman
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/29/05
#75Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 10:18am
There are a lot of issues here.
Why can't there be a respectful conversation about them? Why does every consideration of these issues on this board have to descend into such hostility and name-calling?
I think many on this board have raised good albeit debatable points. But rather than engaging with each other, there's so much talking over each other and unnecessary vitriol.
Granted, there are people who go way overboard on bww, and say the most objectionable things. But is there any reason to view someone's calling attention to the simple fact - which it appears many don't realize - that the principles in EVITA were all of European heritage* have to be one of them? Is there any valid reason to conflate that point with something it simply is not - for instance, an argument that the principles in EVITA must be played by Caucasian actors? A misconstruction which, as I understand it, the poster has repeatedly stated was not intended!
*Granted Che is not necessarily Che Guevara. However in many productions, including the original Broadway cast, he clearly evokes Che Guevara. And in fact some of the lyrics clearly allude to Che Guevara in describing Che.
#76Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 10:57am
I find that the discussion of race among Americans is ridiculously reductive, and yet most Americans feel that they possess an unparalleled brilliance and moral superiority over the rest of the globe on the topic, even though they know nothing (and care less) of how race has social impact in Asia, the Middle East, Africa, and South America (aka the Rest of The World). It's incredibly reductive and racist to blindly assume that everyone born south of the continental US is Latinx, and yet that's what so many Americans do (witnessed in this thread and linked press pieces).
Two other entertaining examples of US race reductiveness:
1) I have two friends (who don't know one another) from Cuba, who both happen to have blond hair, blue eyes, and fair skin, who are constantly told (by people who identify as left or right of center) that they aren't legitimately Latino, because they "look white" and therefore never experienced the problems that "latin-looking people" experienced.
2) A white female composer recently wrote a salsa-inspired song for a benefit, and was told by the organizers that they couldn't use it, as it was "cultural appropriation."
I think we might all be better off questioning our knee-jerk beliefs on both sides of the issue, as well as acknowledging that none of us is so morally and intellectually evolved that we can tell those who disagree with us that they're "disgusting," "repugnant," or the like.
As henrikegerman wisely asks, "Why can't there be a respectful conversation?"
#77Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 11:03am
What I think is strange, if this production of Evita is being criticized for whitewashing, why isn't the LA production of Bright Star being criticized?
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#78Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 12:02pm
Call_me_jorge said: "What I think is strange, if this production of Evita is being criticized for whitewashing, why isn't the LA production of Bright Star being criticized?"
The reviews of the original Broadway production criticized for the pure vanilla casting, despite the musical taking place in Jim Crow North Carolina between 1923-1946. If anything the Bright Star, which is one of my favorite cast recordings, is actually one of the best examples of white washing history and romanticizing a by gone era that never was, which the show itself makes numerous references to. Jimmy Ray's father is a plantation owner, who is so ashamed his son has a love child with a poor white girl, that he tries to kill the baby in secret....just imagine what he would of done if Alice was black. In all honesty I would love to see a production of Bright Star with a black Alice, Billy, Mama and Daddy Murphy as it would add a whole new layer to the plot and all of the characters motivations.
As I have said numerous times, the point of this thread was in hopes of having a discussion of whether casting White leads in Evita would be considered White washing, as 3 well respected regional theaters have been criticized for doing. I was not trying to inflame tensions regarding affirmative action with purposeful intent casting a minority performers over white performers. I think we can all agree that true color blind casting is the ideal, as we have seen in Cinderella, The Great Comet, and the recent revival of Les Miserables. Sometimes though this has the effect of ending up with all white leads, which we cannot balk at because statistically speaking when more white performers audition then minority performers, you are more likely to end up a majority white cast.
#79Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 12:30pm
bdn223 said: "Sometimes though this has the effect of ending up with all white leads, which we cannot balk at because statistically speaking when more white performers audition then minority performers, you are more likely to end up a majority white cast."
Exactly. Unfortunately people feel forced to deliberately cast on race nowadays. Casting someone of color in a neutral role just for the sake of it. To not get backlash, etc. Which is a step backwards.
Like I said, it's what happened back in the day and doing it today but then the other way around "to get even" is just as primitive. You should never put a certain color before another just because of it. As described above, not having a person of color in 4 leads means nothing as it can have multiple reasons per definition.
MovieInMyMind2
Swing Joined: 9/2/17
#80Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 1:17pm
This is the REAL Eva Peron. Look at her. Stop referring to her as a "POC"
Ethnicity / culture has nothing to do with skin tone.
Spain has white people, for example. Lots of countries have white people. White and American = not the same thing. White + European = not the same thing. Not all Europeans are white, some are POC. Not all Americans are white, some are POC.
Likewise, just because someone is from a different country and is of a different ethnicity, it doesn't mean that they can't be white.
There is a controversy about them whitewashing Evita, a white woman?
SHE WAS A REAL PERSON.
As I argued before, they cast a black man to play Aaron Burr, WHO WAS ALSO A REAL PERSON. A real white person. Yet, in Hamilton, they had an African-American play Aaron Burr, who was a real person, and was white.
And when that happens, people go... YAY! DIVERSITY!
But how dare they cast a white actress to play Eva Peron, who was white in real life, right?
How dare they. 
#81Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 1:57pm
Agustin Magaldi
Juan Peron
Che and the mistress are fictional and frankly, can look like any Argentine of the period, of which there is a broad spectrum of skin tones and appearances. If you have the resources to cast with accurate specificity the the country of origin or whatever degree of match you personally believe is essential to the ethnicity of the actors, then by all means, do so. Not everyone has those resources nor do they agree on the degree of accuracy. What are the specific criteria considered acceptable for the casting of the roles? What if an Italian-American guy was the closest in appearance to Magaldi and had the best voice for the character's range?
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
#82Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 2:05pm
"What if an Italian-American guy was the closest in appearance to Magaldi and had the best voice for the character's range?"
It is interesting to note that Mark Syers, the original Magaldi on Broadway, was a person of color. (He was sometimes billed as Mark Hsu Syers and was in the original cast of Pacific Overtures.)
When I see the phrase "the ____ estate", I imagine a vast mansion in the country full of monocled men and high-collared women receiving letters about productions across the country and doing spit-takes at whatever they contain.
-Kad
#83Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 2:44pm
I've read accounts of people saying that casting Latinx characters based on looks is a tricky thing because white people can "pass" as Latinx. Look at Constantine Maroulis, a Greek-American playing Che who said "I’m not exactly a loaf of Wonder Bread" when interviewed about this specific situation. Does having tan or olive skin make it okay to play Latino?
A friend posted on Facebook that it's not just about the skin tone of this real life figure; Eva Peron is specifically a Latina political figure, no matter how white she looked. People identify her as a strong Latina woman regardless of who played her in a musical or a movie. I wouldn't think of casting Julie in Show Boat with a white woman even though she's a black woman who passed as white. I would find a black woman who can pass as white. Should this not be the same, a Latina woman who can pass as white/European if that's a plot point or central to the character? (This was a simile controversy when Emma Stone was cast as an Asian woman who passed as white in Aloha...not okay. There's plenty of Asian or mixed people who can "pass." See also: Jonathan Pryce in Miss Saigon, and he won a Tony in the midst at that off-color [pun intended] casting.)
#84Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 2:49pm
Let me know when there's an outrage over Madama Butterfly not being sung by a Japanese soprano.
And for the record, Olivier wasnt in "blackface". He was in make up. Blackface is meant to ridicule. Olivier was an actor playing a role. Huge difference, one you folks should understand.
http://docandraider.com
#85Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 2:55pm
Actually, blackface (or yellowface, any other variant) is any kind of makeup that is applied to change the skin tone of an actor. So if Olivier used any makeup to darken the color of his skin to play Othello, that's considered blackface. Jonathan Pryce altering the shape of his eyes is yellowface. White opera singers using makeup to alter their skin tone to play Otello and Butterfly is blackface and yellowface, respectively.
Updated On: 9/14/17 at 02:55 PM#86Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 2:57pm
"Eva Peron is specifically a Latina political figure, no matter how white she looked."
No, she's not, as has been pointed out within this thread ad infinitum. And, as I noted, it's quite racist (and American) to assume that all South Americans are Latinx.
#87Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 3:04pm
I'm raising a point a friend posted on Facebook. I understand the differences. I'm a first-generation Asian-American; my eyes are fully open to what's racist. Thanks!
#88Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 3:07pm
That's fine, but Eva Peron was not Latina, no matter what your friend posted, or what "people identify her" as.
#89Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 3:09pm
My parents live in Buenos Aires for several years in the 90s (and subsequently, several years in Columbia). When it comes to Buenos Aires, it's not just about being South American or even Latinx. Citizens of Buenos Aires consider themselves to be in an entirely different class from Argentina and would often be offended when generalized as merely Latinx, South American or even Argentine.
On a side note, my parents were given a posh penthouse by his company while employed in Buenos Aires and across the street from them was a famous hotel. Every morning, my parents would have breakfast on the balcony and wave to Antonio Banderas and Melanie Griffith as they ate on their balcony of the hotel during the time Antonio was filming for Evita.
"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
#90Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 3:12pm
Perhaps it's helpful, five pages in, to streamline what the controversy has become: not that EVITA cast its entire leading company of white people, but that a MAJOR MUSICAL PRODUCTION IN 2017 cast its entire leading company of white people.
The issues of ethnic, national and color identity in relation to EVITA that circle around this issue ultimately haven't been able to score a point either way. I suppose it's not for nothing that the USA legally considers "Hispanic/Latino" the only legal "ethnicity" as opposed to race.
#91Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 3:23pm
"Perhaps it's helpful, five pages in, to streamline what the controversy has become: not that EVITA cast its entire leading company of white people, but that a MAJOR MUSICAL PRODUCTION IN 2017 cast its entire leading company of white people."
Very true, and I think it should be pointed out much more often, and I don't recall hearing anything of the kind said about the lead casting of Something Rotten, Gigi, Bright Star, Dames At Sea, Hello, Dolly, or many other recent Broadway shows. However, it becomes a major discussion when Americans, in their racial confusion, believe that all South Americans are Latinx, and get upset when a show set in South America has all white leads.
#92Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 3:43pm
Vanessa Hudgens, who played the title character in Gigi, is half Filipina.
And yes, I very much was aware of the very white casting of Bright Star, Hello, Dolly!, She Loves Me, Something Rotten, Dames at Sea (complete with that racist Asian number), etc. And no, I don't know why no one made a big stink about those. When you have "tokens" in the ensemble (Dolly, Rotten), you can have actors of color in the principal cast as well (case in point: Gavin Creel is understudied by Christian Dante White, a very talented black actor). And all-white casts like Bright Star (whose casting notice specifically stated that they wanted white actors for some unknown reason) and She Loves Me (yeah there's no reason for an all-white cast of a non-race-specific revival) don't go unnoticed. How lovely to see Bryonha Marie Parham as a black Amalia (and Sally Bowles) in Prince of Broadway.
blaxx
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/28/05
#93Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 4:20pm
newintown said: ""Perhaps it's helpful, five pages in, to streamline what the controversy has become: not that EVITA cast its entire leading company of white people, but that a MAJOR MUSICAL PRODUCTION IN 2017 cast its entire leading company of white people."
Very true, and I think it should be pointed out much more often, and I don't recall hearing anything of the kind said about the lead casting ofSomething Rotten,Gigi,Bright Star,Dames At Sea, Hello, Dolly, or many other recent Broadway shows. However, it becomes a major discussion when Americans, in their racial confusion, believe that all South Americans are Latinx, and get upset when a show set in South America has all white leads."
You don't hear about it because white casting is comodity. They are represented everywhere and have been for centuries onstage. If there is an opportunity to cast someone from a different background, it is socially conscious to take the opportunity and display your commitment to diversity. That is what Hanney should have done instead of saying he didn't look at these matters at all when casting this production.
Listen, I don't take my clothes off for anyone, even if it is "artistic". - JANICE
#94Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 4:31pm
"Color blind casting" - casting a person of any race in a role for which they are they best available actor (even if the character is a real person)
"White washing" - casting a person of any race in a role for which they are they best available actor (even if the character is a real person) unless that actor is white.
Compare and contrast.
btw -I am a huge fan of color blind casting in most cases (my only issue was in Les Mis when young Eponine was white and adult Eponine was black - that irked me as lazy for some reason )
henrikegerman
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/29/05
#95Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 4:37pm
theatregeek6 said:
"White washing" - casting a person of any race in a role for which they are they best available actor (even if the character is a real person) unless that actor is white."
Maybe I'm in a brainfog, but I don't at all understand what you are trying to say with this definition.
#96Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 4:56pm
Color blind casting (a positive term) is deemed good unless the actor cast is white and the role is not perceived to be for a white person. Then that is is called white washing (a pejorative term). It seems we have 2 very different terms for the same thing.
#97Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 4:58pm
theatregeek6 said: "btw -I am a huge fan of color blind casting in most cases (my only issue was in Les Mis when young Eponine was white and adult Eponine was black - that irked me as lazy for some reason) "
I once saw a black Eponine who was horrible, very amateurish and not the right type for the role at all. Which irked me. Not because she was black, just because she was not good in the role at all. I never understood it but they must have had a reason to hire her.......
I think a lot of these so called "color blind" castings are actually very color focused. Which is a bad thing.
JennH
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/14/13
#98Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 5:04pm
HeyMrMusic said: "I've read accounts of people saying that casting Latinx characters based on looks is a tricky thing because white people can "pass" as Latinx. Look at Constantine Maroulis, a Greek-American playing Che who said"I’m not exactly a loaf of Wonder Bread" when interviewed about this specific situation.Does having tan orolive skin make it okay to play Latino?
A friend posted on Facebook that it's not just about the skin tone of this real life figure; Eva Peron is specifically a Latina political figure, no matter how white she looked. People identify her as a strong Latina woman regardless ofwho played her in a musical or a movie. I wouldn't think of casting Julie inShow Boatwith a white woman even though she's a black woman who passed as white. I would find a black woman who can pass as white. Should this not be the same, a Latina woman who can pass as white/European if that's a plot point or central to the character? (This was a simile controversy when Emma Stone was cast as an Asian woman who passed as white in Aloha...not okay. There's plenty of Asian or mixed people who can "pass." See also: Jonathan Pryce in Miss Saigon, and he won a Tony in the midst at that off-color [pun intended]casting.)"
This is the only thing I'm going to say on this thread, and I'm done. This is probably the most sensible thing I've heard about this, and heaven knows these people exists, but then what? The person hired gets asked to mark their ethnicity somewhere or take a blood test to make sure they've have Lantinx somewhere? Because honestly, if they pass as white, you wouldn't be able to tell they're Lantinx otherwise, and that's a a potential slippery slope...Heck the gal doing it at NSMT looks Latina, if no one told me she wasn't, I would have thought she is.
pmensky
Broadway Star Joined: 7/18/11
#99Evita white washing controversy?
Posted: 9/14/17 at 7:07pm
JennH said: "HeyMrMusic said: "I've read accounts of people saying that casting Latinx characters based on looks is a tricky thing because white people can "pass" as Latinx. Look at Constantine Maroulis, a Greek-American playing Che who said"I’m not exactly a loaf of Wonder Bread" when interviewed about this specific situation.Does having tan orolive skin make it okay to play Latino?
A friend posted on Facebook that it's not just about the skin tone of this real life figure; Eva Peron is specifically a Latina political figure, no matter how white she looked. People identify her as a strong Latina woman regardless ofwho played her in a musical or a movie. I wouldn't think of casting Julie inShow Boatwith a white woman even though she's a black woman who passed as white. I would find a black woman who can pass as white. Should this not be the same, a Latina woman who can pass as white/European if that's a plot point or central to the character? (This was a simile controversy when Emma Stone was cast as an Asian woman who passed as white in Aloha...not okay. There's plenty of Asian or mixed people who can "pass." See also: Jonathan Pryce in Miss Saigon, and he won a Tony in the midst at that off-color [pun intended]casting.)"
This is the only thing I'm going to say on this thread, and I'm done.This is probably the most sensible thing I've heard about this, and heaven knows these people exists, but then what? The person hired gets asked to mark their ethnicity somewhere or take a blood test to make sure they've have Lantinx somewhere? Because honestly, if they pass as white, you wouldn't be able to tell they're Lantinx otherwise, andthat's a a potential slippery slope...Heck the gal doing it at NSMT looks Latina, if no one told me she wasn't, I would have thought she is."
I would also add that it is illegal to ask a performer about their race, ethnicity and nationality during an audition, so it can be challenging to find out their background. You can't just schedule actors whose last names sound typical to their ethnicity. According to the 2000 census, the top 5 most common names of people who identified as Hispanic were Smith, Johnson, Williams, Brown and Jones. Taking this into consideration, you sometimes have to go by looks when seeking white actors with specific ethnic backgrounds.
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