Effie and CC's Parentage
Effie and CC's Parentage
Kringas
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/27/05
#1Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 3:00pm
I was trying to figure out which thread to put this in and I couldn't, so I figured I'd start my own. I guess this is semi-spoilerish, so don't read on if you aren't familiar with the story.
For those who have seen the show and the movie Dreamgirls, does anyone else find it problematic that Effie and CC had a father (I'm assuming it was their father) who was so prevalent in the film? I always kind of assumed it was just the two of them and CC's lines in "Family" seem to support that.
Doesn't it also seem odd that with CC and Effie having family that the both speak to, it never got back to Curtis that he had a child? If CC and Effie have a father they are both in touch with, wouldn't CC know she had had a kid? Despite their differences, wouldn't CC have gotten that information back to Curtis, or at the very least, Michelle?
Is this an inconstancy or am I missing something?
"How do you like THAT 'misanthropic panache,' Mr. Goldstone?" - PalJoey
Updated On: 12/27/06 at 03:00 PM
Marlothom
Broadway Star Joined: 4/13/04
#2re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 3:08pm
I agree. Similar to the relationship between CC and Michelle that is IMPLIED by their looks, but never fully established.
Also, wasn't there a scene (from early early teasers) that had Curtis and Effie in bed? I wonder what happened to that.
"Observe how bravely I conceal this dreadful dreadful shame I feel."
Funny Face
Broadway Star Joined: 7/6/06
#2re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 3:13pm
I don't think it's an inconsistency. I think CC realized that if Effie had wanted Curtis to know, she would have told him earlier on, and I think as her brother he just respected that decision. He may have told Michelle, but she probably kept it between the two of them out of respect for him.
It also could have been that CC didn't really have much contact with their father until that one scene when he's at his apartment looking for Effie.
#3re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 3:26pm
The poster is saying that if CC had contact with their father then you would assume that he would have told CC that that Effie had a child.
Funny Face
Broadway Star Joined: 7/6/06
#4re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 3:28pm
Yes, but I was also venturing the idea that he didn't really have that much contact with him.
In the case that he DID, like I said, I think it was out of respect for Effie that he didn't tell anyone.
Marlothom
Broadway Star Joined: 4/13/04
#5re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 3:32pm
Sorry for going off topic before. I think that Effie probably told CC not to say anything to Curtis. I think the Xmas money he sends her, means he knows she has money problems and a daughter to worry about.
"Observe how bravely I conceal this dreadful dreadful shame I feel."
Updated On: 12/27/06 at 03:32 PM
#6re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 3:35pm
If he even cared about Effie he wouldn't have left with her. That's your sister and you don't do things like that with family.
He only cared about money that's why he stayed and to get his name out there.
Just think if the father had not been there then CC wouldn't know where to send the money to so what if the father passed away do you think Effie would write CC seeing to how stubborn she was?
sondhead
Broadway Star Joined: 10/25/06
#7re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 3:36pmI don't think Effie and CC talked from the time she was let go to the club, but there's no reason to believe CC didn't know she had a child. If anything, he looked entirely un-surprised when she knocked at the door and he saw her. That does not mean that he would have told Curtis. Probably lingering feelings of guilt that eventually took him back to Effie would have kept him from telling Curtis, not to mention that if he DID tell him it'd make everything even more messy for Effie
Funny Face
Broadway Star Joined: 7/6/06
#8re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 3:43pmLike he said in the movie, he was very young and made bad decisions. I think he felt like it was right to side with the others in letting Effie go, due to his own naivete and other people (i.e. Curtis) whispering in his ear. They were all fed up with her attitude, even Deena and Lorrel, who were like her sisters, and didn't want to deal with her anymore. Regardless, it was a selfish decision not to support Effie when Curtis fires her, but when you're young and there are people making you believe they know more than you do and are telling you things and on top of that you have your own ambitions in mind, you make bad descisions. CC probbaly realized that not too much later, and didn't want to make matters worse by telling Curtis something Effie very obviously didn't want him to know.
Kringas
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/27/05
#9re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 3:52pm
The addition of their father just muddies things up, if you ask me. The importance of their group being a "Family" seems diminished knowing that they had a father to return to. It's just one of many unnecessary tweaks tot he story line that don't really hurt it, but add nothing to it.
I think CC realized that if Effie had wanted Curtis to know, she would have told him earlier on, and I think as her brother he just respected that decision
I just think that that's a huge leap to make when it's never touched on at all in the screenplay.
"How do you like THAT 'misanthropic panache,' Mr. Goldstone?" - PalJoey
Funny Face
Broadway Star Joined: 7/6/06
#10re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 3:58pm
Hm, I don't know. That's just the way it came across to me. To me, it was just very obvious from the way thngs ended with Effie and Curtis that she wouldn't want anything to do with Curtis anymore, and CC, being a pretty nice guy who still has love for his sister (him sending her money made it pretty clear that he still wantedto look out for her) and maybe wanting to make things right between them, wouldn't betray her that way.
Updated On: 12/27/06 at 03:58 PM
TheatreDiva90016
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/10/04
#11re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 4:35pmYou do know that Effie's father really is Darth Vader, right?
"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>>
“I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post.” <<>>
-whatever2
#12re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 4:41pmAfter all, Diana Ross had Rhonda as a love child with Berry Gordy and didn't acknowledge it until she went on Oprah to promote Secrets of a Sparrow, her tell-nothing autobiography.
cheezedoodle
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/15/05
#13re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 4:49pmIn the stage production Curtis (and Marty) goes to jail and never finds out that he is a father.
"Oh Link...your pork is ready..." - Edna Turnblad
Kringas
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/27/05
#14re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 5:01pmNo they don't. CC says he'll go to jail if he has to, but as the lawyers are leaving they remind Curtis that he'll end up in jail if negotiations fail. That segues into Curtis announcing the break-up of The Dreams and Effie's return to the charts with "One Night Only." The script never says he goes to jail.
"How do you like THAT 'misanthropic panache,' Mr. Goldstone?" - PalJoey
Updated On: 12/27/06 at 05:01 PM
#15re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 5:55pm
I think that maybe CC did not realize it was Curtis' child. I mean he knows she has a kid but really, when you are that "whipped" he may not have even thought about it.
"Whenever I get gloomy with the state of the world, I think about the arrivals gate at Heathrow Airport. General opinion's starting to make out that we live in a world of hatred and greed, but I don't see that. It seems to me that love is everywhere. Often it's not particularly dignified or newsworthy, but it's always there - fathers and sons, mothers and daughters, husbands and wives, boyfriends, girlfriends, old friends. When the planes hit the Twin Towers, as far as I know none of the phone calls from the people on board were messages of hate or revenge - they were all messages of love. If you look for it, I've got a sneaky feeling you'll find that love actually is all around."
silent
Broadway Star Joined: 2/21/04
#16re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 6:01pmThere are alot of things in the movie that don't make the story better. Deena's mom being alive doesn't add up to much of anything. I vaguely recall but was Deena the one to bust Curtis in the play? And why wasn't it mentioned that Effie's version of "One Night Only" went to #1? Deena the light-voiced singer suddenly belting on "Listen" doesn't make much sense either. And Lorrell's solo could have definitely been included in the film. Considering most of the songs took place in a club or on a stage, she could have sung it in a club right after the dressing room scene with Jimmy.
#17re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 6:45pm
No, Deena did not bust Curtis in the play. C.C. and Marty, knowing Curtis' old tricks with disc jockeys, most likely knew that he had something to do with it. It is never really explained. They kind of just show up. Deena's mother being alive doesn't really add anything, but her mother being dead didn't really do much either. In the show, it's mentioned once that her mother died and Deena says that because of a promise she made to her mother she wants to be important. Apparently, being important to Deena means making movies.
Movie wise, "Listen" is added to add depth to Deena. Because, let's face it, Deena needed more character development IMMENSELY. She is a cardboard character onstage who is just "there" in Act One and in Act Two is somewhat trying to "break free" from Curtis. The movie I felt made Deena's situation with Curtis more dire and her departure from him wasn't nearly as forced as it is in the show.
Also, her belting adds to her desperation to break free. Especially after Curtis told her that her voice had no personality, it was a way for her to prove him wrong because she needed to rebel from him. And is it really important that Effie's "One Night Only" needed to be mentioned as number one in the country? This is what I got from the film.
I do agree that Lorrell needed her own independent number because she never really has any resolved conflict. That was a problem with her character in the show as well.
"Sing the words, Patti!!!!" Stephen Sondheim to Patti LuPone.
Updated On: 12/27/06 at 06:45 PM
timote316
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/20/04
#18re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 8:49pm
They never really say that Deena is a "light-voiced" singer, as you call it, silent, its just said that she can't sing like Effie can, which is very true. Deena has more of a pop sound, as opposed to Effie's sound, which is exactly what "Listen" is. I think it fit perfectly.
And I disagree that Lorrell needed her own solo - that isn't her character. Throughout the entire film, she's just part of the group - why would she suddenly have her own solo number? The only time it would be appropriate would be at some type of funeral, which would only have lengthened the film. Not necessary.
ETA: It would have most certainly been excellent to hear Anika have her moment in the sun, but it wouldn't have made sense.
Updated On: 12/27/06 at 08:49 PM
Funny Face
Broadway Star Joined: 7/6/06
#19re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 9:14pmI diaagree that "Listen" was unnecessary. I feel it added an immense amount of story and character to Deena. It really is a powerful moment in the movie, and almost as touching as "And I Am Telling You". It gives Deena much more of an arc. She's finally breaking free from merely being Curtis's pawn and showing everyone that she isn't just an under-talented showpiece; she is now taking control of her life and her career. It also makes her more sympathetic, which, in the end, makes the story much more rewarding. Not to mention distances it from The Supreme's story.
#20re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 9:24pm
Listen was just a song that Deena records so it didnt mean anything and therefore it was pointless because of the way Bill wrote it in the movie.
And does anyone really believe Curtis would let her sing a song she wrote. I doubt he would have unless it was a daydream of what Deena really wanted to sing.
Funny Face
Broadway Star Joined: 7/6/06
#21re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 9:33pm
"Listen was just a song that Deena records so it didnt mean anything and therefore it was pointless because of the way Bill wrote it in the movie."
Yes, but it was obvious who she was singing it to. Curtis was right in the recording booth lsitening and watching, and the lyrics are very straightforward. And even if it was just a recording and not a full-fleged attack at Curtis, the fact that she wrote her own song about what she was going through and not just some insipid garbage Curtis was pushing on her and sang it with so much passion still gives her a poignant moment.
"And does anyone really believe Curtis would let her sing a song she wrote. I doubt he would have unless it was a daydream of what Deena really wanted to sing."
I think he might've just let her do it to appease her and maybe just not release it. I dunno, some things you just have to draw your own conclusions about.
#22re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 10:38pm
GhettoBwy-Does a song HAVE to be sung in a scene in order for it to have purpose? The whole point of the film version of Cabaret was that though the musical numbers weren't in the scenes, they were somewhat commenting on what was happening. Many numbers in Dreamgirls that are meant to be performance numbers are commenting on a character's emotional status or plot wise what is happening in the film. And plus, nowhere does it say that Deena wrote "Listen". And from looking at Jaime Foxx's facial expression, you could tell that Deena gave it more soul than he expected/wanted her to.
It's little moments like that, that you have to look for to understand certain plot points. Many crucial moments in the film happen in a few seconds and without words spoken. An example of this is when they are singing "I Want You Baby" at Miami, and Lorrell and Effie are cracking on stage while Jimmy breaks loose. While Curtis notices that Deena is staying completely calm and poised and has many of the white males in the club looking at her lustfully. This moment happens in about 5 seconds, and yet you can tell what Curtis is going to do with the Dreamettes from there.
And okay, if Lorrell can't have her own number, I would've AT LEAST wanted to see Lorrell to go to the morgue to see Jimmy one last time and have Melba prevent her from seeing him. It's in the novelization and I think it was based on a deleted scene in the film. It would clarify the whole "She won't let me see him, Deena" line to audiences and it would've given me an opportunity to see Anika on screen more. She nearly stole the movie for me.
"Sing the words, Patti!!!!" Stephen Sondheim to Patti LuPone.
timote316
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/20/04
#23re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 10:55pm
wickedfan -- Anika most definitely was a highlight of the film, but I don't think the scene you talk about it necessary. We need to know that Jimmy's wife forbade Lorrell from seeing Jimmy one last time, we don't exactly have to see it happening.
And I totally agree with you on the little moments you talked about. I didn't catch them the first time I saw the film on Monday, but caught them tonight. This is one of the (few) things that movies have over live performances.
#24re: Effie and CC's Parentage
Posted: 12/27/06 at 11:14pm
Although I do think that "Listen" adds tremendous depth to Deena, I'm not so sure it would have been added to the film if a singing superstar like Beyonce wasn't playing the role, which is exactly why I didn't like it.
Is "Listen" a great song? Yes. Does it do great things for Deena's arc and show off Beyonce's tremendous talent? Yes, but that doesn't make it a right fit within the context of the film.
While I think it is great to have a song where Deena can showcase her emotions and grow as a character, the manner in which the song is sung/performed is what bothered me. Those same emotions could have been expressed in a much more muted and repressed tone that would have fit leagues better with the way we are told the character is the entire story. Deena is supposed to be someone with a hollow, personality-less sound, yet she comes out of nowhere with a killer belt full of fire and passion?
There is no way to justify the character having that type of voice and never using it, because if she had that instrument, she would never be considered significantly less talented than Effie. That is what I think people forget. Deena isn't supposed to just be not as good as Effie.. she is supposed to be NOTICEABLY beneath her.
Deena's backstory isn't the only part of the film that makes the song illogical. Curtis continuously harps on wanting a new, more disco-like sound and even goes as far as to say "message" songs are dead, yet he lets Deena record just that in "Listen"?
Let's look at the source material, even. Does Diana Ross have a pretty, mellow sound? Yes, but could she blow the roof off the place like Florence Ballard could? Absolutely not.
All of these things just make the way "Listen" was done, to me, nothing more than a cheap attempt to give Beyonce her own powerhouse ballad of the likes of "And I Am Telling You."
Tonya Pinkins: Then we had a "Lot's Wife" last June that was my personal favorite. I'm still trying to get them to let me sing it at some performance where we get to sing an excerpt that's gone.
Tony Kushner: You can sing it at my funeral.
Updated On: 12/28/06 at 11:14 PM
Tony Kushner: You can sing it at my funeral.
Videos