Libertarians

Well, I'll ignore the series of ad hominems in your post :) and tell you how I answer the substantive question about my orientation towards things like government involvement in healthcare and other forms of economic aid.

I'm not a "libertarianism now!" kind of person when it comes to these things. That would bake in too many unjust inequalities, and would leave too many people stranded. Most of those people are just dealing with our world the way it is right now, and are doing nothing wrong at all by accessing the assistance available to them.

Instead, I view (economic) libertarianism as a (very, very) long-term ideal, not something to be abruptly implemented by the next president or the one after that or the one after that. I think we all realize that would not only be unfair, but disastrous to an economy that is not used to playing by libertarian rules. I do believe humans can eventually build a world where the government programs that libertarians dislike are no longer needed, but it won't be anytime soon.

So my economic libertarian ideals are somewhat theoretical. I'm more animated by other issues - ending the War on Drugs that has destroyed so many lives; the military adventurism that has US troops occupying many dozens of countries; the NSA spying on innocent people; the imprisoning of human beings for life without trial; the sending of assassination drones to kill people on the other side of the earth. The two establishment parties are generally lousy on these issues, which makes it hard for me to imagine supporting them anytime soon.

Kad said: "Many libertarians get to be smug because their beliefs are only ever theoretical.



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And it is that way not be choice but by doctrine, thanks to a horribly flawed and corrupt two-party system created only to benefit corporations, lobbyists and career politicians.

Kad said: "Many libertarians get to be smug because their beliefs are only ever theoretical."

Well, the ones that are most important to me aren't theoretical at all, as I noted in the last post. Of course, you may not be responding directly to me. In fact, I hope you aren't, because I don't think I behave smugly around here in general. :)

ETA: I get that some libertarians can come off as a little sanctimonious. But it's also true that others (progressives or conservatives) are not always respectful of even well-meaning libertarians. I could cite some examples from my interactions on this very board, and I think they're generally based on my opinions rather than my behavior.

Updated On: 8/17/16 at 01:33 PM

I do not think Mr Roxy is smug at all. I think what you mean to say is that he has a different outlook on life than you do. And your first post is very smug in my opinion.

I am curious as to how libertarians see our country's place in the world. I find many of their tenets laudable, however the general tack towards isolationism is not.

Most libertarians I meet and talk with are idealists without practicality. They don't want the government invading their lives because they have something to hide that makes them nervous about "big brother" watching. Again, that's MY experience with them. Also, they don't realize how much they rely on the government for so many things from sewage management to police and fire departments to road repair to any number of public services that require regulations and funding to make them work for everyone. "Independent" indeed. I find that notion riddled with hypocrisy.

best12bars said: "Most libertarians I meet and talk with are idealists without practicality. They don't want the government invading their lives because they have something to hide that makes them nervous about "big brother" watching. Again, that's MY experience with them. Also, they don't realize how much they rely on the government for so many things from sewage management to police and fire departments to road repair to any number of public services that require regulations and funding to make them work for everyone. "Independent" indeed. I find that notion riddled with hypocrisy.



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You must not talk to real Libertarians, then; only those who are paranoid anarchists, like the McVeighs of the world. Most reasonable Libertarians, as I'm sure kdogg will back me up on, believe the government should (and must) continue to provide essential social programs, necessary infrastructure and security services to its people. Better define the scope and control of the government by removing the "excess fat" and hyper-focusing its functions on only the basic necessities (public works, law enforcement, national security).

• "We are now vibrating between too much and too little government, and the pendulum will rest finally in the middle." --Thomas Jefferson to S. Smith, 1788.

• "I think, myself, that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." --Thomas Jefferson to W. Ludlow, 1824.

• "Societies exist under three forms sufficiently distinguishable. 1. Without government, as among our Indians... It is a problem not clear in my mind that the first condition is not the best. But I believe it to be inconsistent with any great degree of population." --Thomas Jefferson to J. Madison, 1787.

• "The happiness and prosperity of our citizens... is the only legitimate object of government and the first duty of governors." -- Thomas Jefferson to Thaddeus Kosciusko, 1811. ME 13:41

I was certainly not referring to you, kdogg. You've always been a friendly and reasonable poster here.

I heard the Libertarian candidates on MSNBC today. They both agreed that government has to get out of health care. Here we are, claiming to be the world authority on morality, and we can't recognize that making health care a basic right, as other nations have done, is not only the most moral but more cost effective. Libertarians tend to have a me first attitude, in order to tone down the rhetoric Weld added today, "we have a system now that saves the indigent." We don't want to be saved those of us who at different times have not been able to afford health insurance. What we want is fairness. The current system is not working, with so many non contributing hands in the pie, and Libertarians want to unleash the wonders of the free market in this realm.

South Florida said: "I heard the Libertarian candidates on MSNBC today. They both agreed that government has to get out of health care. Here we are, claiming to be the world authority on morality, and we can't recognize that making health care a basic right, as other nations have done, is not only the most moral but more cost effective. Libertarians tend to have a me first attitude, in order to tone down the rhetoric Weld added today, "we have a system now that saves the indigent." We don't want to be saved those of us who at different times have not been able to afford health insurance. What we want is fairness. The current system is not working, with so many non contributing hands in the pie, and Libertarians want to unleash the wonders of the free market in this realm.



"What is fair to you and is me first to you is not to everybody.. Socialism is the selfish. They want other peoples money. Other people to pay for and buy them stuff other eople to provide them with stuff. Libertarians seem to want to pay their share and be left alone. At least that is how i understand it.

That was meant for Liza. Feel sorry for the Libertarians they seem to be self absorbed. We're in this together guys, not for our country, but for our world. How are we going to fight the global disaster from happening without cooperation How is isolationism and fracking going to solve the problems we face. I'm 54 now and I want my grandchildren to start seeing a cooperative world, peace is everything, bringing the greatest minds in the world together to solve this disaster should be our priority.

HorseTears said: "From my experience, kdogg has always been a reasonable and fairly pragmatic contributor to political discussions on here. But, with regard to hardcore true-blue libertarians, I think it's rather telling that the overwhelming majority of self-described libertarians are white men.



" Well if they white men it must be evil!! oh and Salon. really?